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Tripwire
(@tripwire)
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I have mentioned this before, and because I brougt it up twice in a game the refs are going to be taking a look at it again.  There is some obscure rule that apparently says that a back can't be beside the QB?

I have an offset FB that is smelling what the guard had for breakfast in the formation.  That puts his head beside the qb's butt.  The refs said there was a rule that states the backs have to be behind the qb.  They pulled the rule out of a book that has amendments in it or something that showed that.

I want to try to clarify this rule.  I know a bunch of people immediately said NO!  bs...  but he actually told me the article # and explained it to me but never got the book to me.  I want to try to make sure, just for my own peace of mind.

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PSLCOACHROB
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So would that apply to wings also? What about in shotgun? Sounds bogus.


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matt8188
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Single wing blocking back is way in front of the qb.

Plus when most teams kneel, they put a man on each side of the qb to ensure the snap.

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Bob Goodman
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I have mentioned this before, and because I brougt it up twice in a game the refs are going to be taking a look at it again.  There is some obscure rule that apparently says that a back can't be beside the QB?

I have an offset FB that is smelling what the guard had for breakfast in the formation.  That puts his head beside the qb's butt.  The refs said there was a rule that states the backs have to be behind the qb.  They pulled the rule out of a book that has amendments in it or something that showed that.

I want to try to clarify this rule.  I know a bunch of people immediately said NO!  bs...  but he actually told me the article # and explained it to me but never got the book to me.  I want to try to make sure, just for my own peace of mind.

It doesn't exist in any of the major codes, but obviously, if you've been shown it, it must exist in whatever rules your organiz'n is playing by.  Can you get a copy?  If you need clarif'n, you could try posting it here, but I don't see why we'd give you any better analysis than the officials in your organiz'n.  However, I'd be interested in seeing it, because I have an abiding interest in rules and how they're written, no matter how small the organiz'n using them or how long they might've been in force.


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Michael
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They might be talking about 2-27-4 in the NCAA rule book or whatever the equivalent is in the high school rule book.

Basically, you're not a back if your head or body breaks the plane of a line drawn through the waistline of the nearest lineman.  You're not a lineman if your head or body does not break the plane of a line drawn through the snapper's waistline.

And you can't be in no man's land.

An exception is made for a player "in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap."

So your QB can be under center, but someone right next to him would probably be illegal, depending on the depth of your linemen and that sort of thing.

If your QB is not in no man's land, then guys can line up even with him.  The rule book does't care what you call anyone.  It only cares about a player "in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap."  He's the only guy who can be in no man's land and still be considered a back.

I'm no expert on the rules, but it sounds to me like that might be the issue.

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Bob Goodman
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Yes, it could be the rule that Michael wrote of.  Depends what "a book that has amendments in it" is.  If it's just an edition of one of the major codes that was out of date but had slipsheets in it bringing it up to date, than Michael's explanation is the likeliest.  If it's one of the major codes plus amendments Tripwire's organiz'n put in that require the other backs to be behind the QB, that's another story.

If it is the provision of one of the major codes, it'd still be hard for a "sniffer" FB to be in violation.  If the guard he's behind and the FB are each in 3-point or 4-point stance, then, yes, the FB's hand might be even with or ahead of the G's feet or foot.  If the FB is actually in the A gap, then he could very well be in violation, but Tripwire's description of his position doesn't seem consistent with that possibility.


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mahonz
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They might be talking about 2-27-4 in the NCAA rule book or whatever the equivalent is in the high school rule book.

Basically, you're not a back if your head or body breaks the plane of a line drawn through the waistline of the nearest lineman.  You're not a lineman if your head or body does not break the plane of a line drawn through the snapper's waistline.

And you can't be in no man's land.

An exception is made for a player "in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap."

So your QB can be under center, but someone right next to him would probably be illegal, depending on the depth of your linemen and that sort of thing.

If your QB is not in no man's land, then guys can line up even with him.  The rule book does't care what you call anyone.  It only cares about a player "in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap."  He's the only guy who can be in no man's land and still be considered a back.

I'm no expert on the rules, but it sounds to me like that might be the issue.

M

That makes sense. We have used a Sniffer Back a lot over the years and he is not allowed to even place a hand on an OL-man pre snap....and most certainly cannot break the Centers waistband and then receive a hand off.

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coachdoug
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They might be talking about 2-27-4 in the NCAA rule book or whatever the equivalent is in the high school rule book.

Basically, you're not a back if your head or body breaks the plane of a line drawn through the waistline of the nearest lineman.  You're not a lineman if your head or body does not break the plane of a line drawn through the snapper's waistline.

And you can't be in no man's land.

An exception is made for a player "in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap."

So your QB can be under center, but someone right next to him would probably be illegal, depending on the depth of your linemen and that sort of thing.

If your QB is not in no man's land, then guys can line up even with him.  The rule book does't care what you call anyone.  It only cares about a player "in position to receive a hand-to-hand snap."  He's the only guy who can be in no man's land and still be considered a back.

I'm no expert on the rules, but it sounds to me like that might be the issue.

This is exactly what I was thinking.  Other than you league having its own special rules, I'm not sure what else it could possibly be. 

The relevant rules are 7-2-3:

ART. 3 . . . Of the players of A who are not on their line at the snap only one may penetrate the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on his line. He must have his hands in position to receive the ball if it is snapped between the snapper’s legs but he is not required to receive the snap. Any other player(s) must be in legal position as a back. (See 2-32-3)

and 2-32-3:

ART. 3 . . . A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line, except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back.

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PSLCOACHROB
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Trip is in Pop Warner so he would not have any weird rules thaat us other PW guys don't have.


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coachmyles
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Trip is in Pop Warner so he would not have any weird rules thaat us other PW guys don't have.

Doesn't Pop Warner play by Fed rules anyway? If so is that in the Fed rule book?

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Tripwire
(@tripwire)
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Topic starter  

This is exactly what I was thinking.  Other than you league having its own special rules, I'm not sure what else it could possibly be. 

The relevant rules are 7-2-3:

ART. 3 . . . Of the players of A who are not on their line at the snap only one may penetrate the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on his line. He must have his hands in position to receive the ball if it is snapped between the snapper’s legs but he is not required to receive the snap. Any other player(s) must be in legal position as a back. (See 2-32-3)

and 2-32-3:

ART. 3 . . . A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line, except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back.

Yes this is definately what they were trying to tell me.  Our FB may have been in the A "Gap" although we were foot to foot.  When we did our wedge we put him very tight in there.  His hand was NOT through the plane of the lineman, but it was clearly across the plane of the QB.  Basically on first sound our QB just turned and put the ball in the FB's gut then executed his fakes with the other backs.  He said we cannot have the FB there and he forced us to move him back to where you could see a gap between the FB's helmet and the QB's butt.

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coachdoug
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Yes this is definately what they were trying to tell me.  Our FB may have been in the A "Gap" although we were foot to foot.  When we did our wedge we put him very tight in there.  His hand was NOT through the plane of the lineman, but it was clearly across the plane of the QB.  Basically on first sound our QB just turned and put the ball in the FB's gut then executed his fakes with the other backs.  He said we cannot have the FB there and he forced us to move him back to where you could see a gap between the FB's helmet and the QB's butt.

In that case, it sounds like the officials in your game clearly miss-applied the rule.  That FB meerly needs to be fully behind his nearest teammate who is on the line.  The QB, according to the rules I quoted, is considered a back.  They made a mistake.  Not much you can do about it now, but you may want to note those rules (and the handful of others mentioned in this thread) and either send it in to the officials association this off-season or at least have it ready for pre-game discussions next season.

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