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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 18, 2020 11:36 pm  
Posted by: @coach-kyle

@mahonz Here's an unrelated question. Could I describe zone blocking like this?

 

You determine if you're covered or uncovered. If you're covered, then you block that man away from the play. Uncovered lineman look to form a combo block and if you get to combo you want one player to get to the second level.

 

 

Good to see you have your history back. Initially...if you take away the combo to climb aspect then you will have LB'rs spiking your play. The reason being is the zone must rotate away from the POA for Outside zone and part away for Inside zone.  

If your uncovered blockers chip and go they will typically end up behind the LB'rs flow ( spiking )

A TE should never be used for any edge defender in zone. He will be your SAM  / WILL killer. Leave that edge defender up to a Back. This isnt necessary for the upper level fronts but is critical for the youth levels since you will see so many 50 and 60 fronts. Formation matters. A 2x2 detached spread running zone with 4th graders for example....not impossible but tough. But a 2x1 detached spread or the use of a TE will Help complete the deal. 

 

If I ever go back to Zone I will most certainly use Joe's H Back Insert Rules. 

Its genius. 

 

All that said....no I would not teach zone like this. It has to be 2-3 pairs of OLM comboing and climbing and rotating the zone. Difficult to accomplish until they are old enough to learn how to dance. The 3rd grades I have now...cant even tie their own shoes. So age matters as well. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Coach Kyle
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February 19, 2020 12:33 am  

@bob-goodman

Well I'm thinking about running this out of the beast, which has 3 sniffer backs. 

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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February 19, 2020 10:59 am  
Posted by: @mahonz

Dave, you are taking my statement out of context. my friend. 

Probably.  But only because I don't understand what's being discussed.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 19, 2020 11:10 am  
Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @mahonz

Dave, you are taking my statement out of context. my friend. 

Probably.  But only because I don't understand what's being discussed.

--Dave

Not at all. I wasn't making a blanket statement....just commenting on Kyles specific Posts and what he was hoping for. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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February 19, 2020 6:02 pm  
Posted by: @coach-kyle

@gumby_in_co

I've been thinking about different ways to run the beast blast. I want to run it as a sort of punch-you-in-the-mouth play and goal line play. I also want to run it as an MPP play. I want a super fast install, and I want it to be more on the fool-proof side. I want kids who aren't overly talented to get double teams.

I really like the idea of going outside-in. Rule would be something like Outside/On/Gap. Then you use the 3 beast backers to fill in anywhere that needs a double team. Say the defense is running an 8 down lineman front. Every offensive lineman would block their outside man. The three beast backers would create double teams inside-out. So #2 would double with center; #3 would double with guard; #4 would double with the tackle. It would be a mess, but I'd think we would at least get yardage. And that's the least ideal situation to run such a play. If they have 8 men on the line I'm thinking about getting outside anyways. A more realistic situation is that you get a 6-2 with your playside guard double covered; so that the 2 and 4 holes are filled with someone. Then you'll send the #2 back to double team with the center; #4 will double with the player in the 8 hole (between the power tackle and the tight end), and your #3 is free to block to the 2nd level. Furthermore, I think you could accomplish the same thing from the single wing, which is great because I like running both formations.

 

My first concern is with all those double teams, no one is blocking LBs. However, if you work in some combo blocks, I think you're on to something. I'd love to see film of this outside-in approach. I can't run Beast this Spring because they don't allow unbalanced lines. Our Reach scheme (River/Lake) is essentially outside in, but we never run it out of Beast and we always use it for sweeps. I'm wondering if we can use it in Beast with our mega splits to run a stretch play.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Coach Kyle
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February 19, 2020 9:58 pm  

@gumby_in_co

Something hit me yesterday that if we send the #2 back to the back-side, like how you guys drew it up, it could act as a cut off for a lot of things-gone-wrong. So for example, if you do outside-in, then if you have a typical 6-2 that aligns properly against an unbalanced line, then you have someone in your 2 and 4 hole. This would mean your guard and tackle double team, but your center is reach blocking. That's not a great thing, but if you send the #2 back side then you have some clean up if the center just wiffs, and potentially you could send your left end and guard to block line backers from the back side, setting up a cut back. Your #3 and #4 could just read the bubbles and block and the 2nd level as well. Obviously this becomes a problem if they decide to use an 7/8 down lineman front, but so does a lot of stuff.

Now you don't get double teams everywhere with this, but such is life and math.

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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gumby_in_co
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February 20, 2020 11:09 am  

@coach-kyle

That backside block is something Mahonz and I will never agree on. 99% of the time, I believe that if the Beast back gets caught from the back side, it's his own damn fault. If it were up to me, I'd only send a backside blocker if some stud was just killing us. Even then, I'd stop sending him once the stud started expecting it and was no longer just pinning back his ears.

Your "outside in" idea really has my gears working. For years, we blocked it inside out and I used to have battles with our former OC who liked to run Beast up the A gap. I tried to explain to him that this was running counter to the leverage. We were blocking guys into the POA. What if I had changed up the blocking rules to Outside In when we ran it tight?  Something to tinker with next Fall.

 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Coach Kyle
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February 20, 2020 6:22 pm  

@gumby_in_co The reason I want to send the #2 back to the backside is because I want to release the left end to the middle line backer. It sets up a nice cutback block because the linebacker naturally wants to flow with your #1 back, so they're blocked in the direction they want to go. You could also send your #4 back in counter motion to sucker the backside OLB, and if the MLB is being suckered, the LE could just leave him. It's becoming complicated, and the left end is typically a MPP, but it's a thought.

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 20, 2020 6:39 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

That backside block is something Mahonz and I will never agree on. 99% of the time, I believe that if the Beast back gets caught from the back side, it's his own damn fault. If it were up to me, I'd only send a backside blocker if some stud was just killing us. Even then, I'd stop sending him once the stud started expecting it and was no longer just pinning back his ears.

Your "outside in" idea really has my gears working. For years, we blocked it inside out and I used to have battles with our former OC who liked to run Beast up the A gap. I tried to explain to him that this was running counter to the leverage. We were blocking guys into the POA. What if I had changed up the blocking rules to Outside In when we ran it tight?  Something to tinker with next Fall.

I was speaking in foot to foot terms. Unless you have world class snapping....that Sniffer must go backside. With Mega Splits....im totally with you....until you decided to use a short side SE. 😎 

 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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February 20, 2020 9:48 pm  
Posted by: @coach-kyle

@bob-goodman

Well I'm thinking about running this out of the beast, which has 3 sniffer backs.

Then you'll have no problem alignment-wise getting an OL to post and a sniffer to shoot down a DL from the side.  The sniffers all face forward in beast, so they can combine just as easily with a line blocker in either direction.  Not quite the effect of a sideways-facing QB or motioning WB, but should be good enough.


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Bob Goodman
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February 20, 2020 9:59 pm  
Posted by: @mahonz
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

That backside block is something Mahonz and I will never agree on. 99% of the time, I believe that if the Beast back gets caught from the back side, it's his own damn fault. If it were up to me, I'd only send a backside blocker if some stud was just killing us. Even then, I'd stop sending him once the stud started expecting it and was no longer just pinning back his ears.

Your "outside in" idea really has my gears working. For years, we blocked it inside out and I used to have battles with our former OC who liked to run Beast up the A gap. I tried to explain to him that this was running counter to the leverage. We were blocking guys into the POA. What if I had changed up the blocking rules to Outside In when we ran it tight?  Something to tinker with next Fall.

I was speaking in foot to foot terms. Unless you have world class snapping....that Sniffer must go backside.

Snapping head down with a lead snap on a quick hitting play, if the snap execution is still letting a back side player make the tackle, then you've positioned the beast back too deep or something else is wrong.  If you can't sacrifice the snapper as "half a blocker" and must have his head up, then I see your point.

 


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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February 20, 2020 11:06 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Snapping head down with a lead snap on a quick hitting play, if the snap execution is still letting a back side player make the tackle, then you've positioned the beast back too deep or something else is wrong.  If you can't sacrifice the snapper as "half a blocker" and must have his head up, then I see your point.

 

Bob,

Our struggles the last 2 seasons with this team and snappers is like a Greek Tragedy and a Horror film rolled into one.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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February 21, 2020 3:34 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Snapping head down with a lead snap on a quick hitting play, if the snap execution is still letting a back side player make the tackle, then you've positioned the beast back too deep or something else is wrong.  If you can't sacrifice the snapper as "half a blocker" and must have his head up, then I see your point.

 

Bob,

Our struggles the last 2 seasons with this team and snappers is like a Greek Tragedy and a Horror film rolled into one.

Huh, I thought it was Mahonz having that problem.  I mix you two up a lot.  Maybe it was both.

So which is it, head up or head down?

 


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 21, 2020 5:15 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Snapping head down with a lead snap on a quick hitting play, if the snap execution is still letting a back side player make the tackle, then you've positioned the beast back too deep or something else is wrong.  If you can't sacrifice the snapper as "half a blocker" and must have his head up, then I see your point.

 

Bob,

Our struggles the last 2 seasons with this team and snappers is like a Greek Tragedy and a Horror film rolled into one.

Huh, I thought it was Mahonz having that problem.  I mix you two up a lot.  Maybe it was both.

So which is it, head up or head down?

 

Im the handsome one. 😎 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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February 21, 2020 8:51 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Snapping head down with a lead snap on a quick hitting play, if the snap execution is still letting a back side player make the tackle, then you've positioned the beast back too deep or something else is wrong.  If you can't sacrifice the snapper as "half a blocker" and must have his head up, then I see your point.

 

Bob,

Our struggles the last 2 seasons with this team and snappers is like a Greek Tragedy and a Horror film rolled into one.

Huh, I thought it was Mahonz having that problem.  I mix you two up a lot.  Maybe it was both.

So which is it, head up or head down?

 

We coach together. We both have that problem. 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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