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CoachDP
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July 6, 2020 12:47 am  
Posted by: @immiru

I've coached pulling with the UBSW and the Power T and had no concerns about young athletes (9+ yo) executing. 

Nor should there be.

A well-executed pull is simply a run and a block.  Teaching players to do both is simple and not at all complex, although I've heard some coaches make it incredibly complicated.  I think we've got a stickie about pulling somewhere around here.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Seth54
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July 6, 2020 6:40 am  

@32wedge

I actually think the backside hinge is what I’m looking for, thanks. My rules are different, but I basically get to a very similar result, with the exception of being down a blocker because I’m not based out of unbalanced. 

Do you have a PDF of your ISO? Just curious how that looks

 


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32wedge
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July 6, 2020 7:15 am  

@seth54

Here is the two plays I run with part the waters (ISO) type blocking up front.  The key is that any ON block is through the play side shoulder of the ON defensive lineman.  I run these plays with foot to foot splits and both work great.  The BURST play is basically a TUNNEL adjustment to POWER but my line blocks it the way I would block an I Formation ISO.

 

 


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Seth54
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July 6, 2020 10:31 am  

@coachdp

 

To *me*, Power is down, down, kickout and one wrapper. We go 3pt stances, and about 6” splits. I don’t teach back off the line, but that seems to come natural, maybe because they see OL line up that way on Sunday. 

I agree it shouldn’t be overly complex to teach to kids, in fact I’ve been toying with the idea of teaching it as “running interference” so the idea of running is included and they get that they don’t have to pancake the guy, just wall him off and get in his was. 

 


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CoachDP
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July 6, 2020 11:18 am  
Posted by: @seth54

To *me*, Power is down, down, kickout and one wrapper. We go 3pt stances, and about 6” splits. I don’t teach back off the line, but that seems to come natural, maybe because they see OL line up that way on Sunday. 

--The further off of the LOS your o-linemen are, the less they will have to recess on their pull.  Recessing (i.e., looping) takes time and usually the biggest issue in pulling regards the amount of time it takes for o-linemen to get in position to block from a pull.  When we use the 3-point stance, our Guards' inside hands are touching the outside heel of the Center.  Because we are so deep, we are able to pull forward at a 45 degree angle (what we call "2 o'clock" for the left side of our line, or "10 o'clock" for the right side of our line).  We do not have to waste time by pulling flat, teaching/using a bucket-step, or pulling the "deep loop" (think "Lombardi Sweep.")

I agree it shouldn’t be overly complex to teach to kids, in fact I’ve been toying with the idea of teaching it as “running interference” so the idea of running is included and they get that they don’t have to pancake the guy, just wall him off and get in his was. 

--Clearly "running interference" is a valuable asset in pulling.  I have seen that time and time again.  I've seen defenders try to run around the "interference" (instead of trying to take on the blockers) and as a result, it was as if our ball-carrier was running with an invisible force-field around him.  As for the pancakes, we'll take them, but we don't need them.  But with our approach to blocking, we don't have a problem being able to block in the open field.  However, many coaches find it very difficult to teach open-field blocking to their linemen because their linemen are chasing moving islands.  We don't teach it that way.

--Dave

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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July 6, 2020 11:34 am  
Posted by: @seth54

@32wedge

 

i guess my biggest concern is that a lot of teams in my league love blitzing the A Gap and with my C and OT covered, I don’t really trust them to get down and cover that open gap. I was thinking I could just drill the OGs to stay if they see the Mike creeping up to blitz. Am I missing something? 

No, that's a good plan.  You just have to work out some landmarks to practice that tell you, that LB is now close enough to the line that even if he doesn't shoot, he's going to have trouble scraping over to the hole, so I might as well block him here.


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Bob Goodman
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July 6, 2020 11:53 am  
Posted by: @seth54

@bob-goodman

Our standard rule for our PSG on most plays is to step with his inside foot to catch a slanting Nose, if the nose doesn’t slant his way, he continues on to cutoff the Mike. If the Mike is a stud and he misses him, he goes to the backside Backer. If the Mike is creeping in his Gap he takes him, most likely with a shoeshine.

I know in our wing T system in the power series there'd be no inside fake to hold the MLB, and with our OL splits the angle the PSG has to take against a nose slanting that way, if the MLB is so slow that the G could get still get to that side of him, we wouldn't need to block him.

If you shoeshine and your playing rules are Fed-based, the LB had better have gotten within a yard of the LOS at the snap, and then actually shoot so contact occurs with either you or him in the neutral zone, to initiate contact below the waist -- if you have 4 field officials.  If you have only 3 and they use the mechanics they tend to these days -- U and HL looking down the line -- then the only official with a good chance of seeing that is the R, and he's probably not looking there.

As to pulling the BSG from the I formation, good luck getting him to the POA in time for it to matter.  On a deep leisurely TB toss if your C-G split is small and the Gs are fully recessed, or if your Gs are exceptionally quick, then maybe yeah.

But a short pull by the BSG can be useful on a wide play.  He cleans up any trash inside and looks like he's trapping, which is nice if you have a trap play to go with this.


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32wedge
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July 6, 2020 12:14 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @seth54

@bob-goodman

Our standard rule for our PSG on most plays is to step with his inside foot to catch a slanting Nose, if the nose doesn’t slant his way, he continues on to cutoff the Mike. If the Mike is a stud and he misses him, he goes to the backside Backer. If the Mike is creeping in his Gap he takes him, most likely with a shoeshine.

As to pulling the BSG from the I formation, good luck getting him to the POA in time for it to matter.  

That’s crazy Bob.  The guard only has to go 2-3 yards if your play side line are blocking down.  If your play side don’t move their feet, the guard still only has about 4 yards at most to get  around the edge with 6” splits.  Align that deep back at 6-7 yards and the guard can get there or you need to check for a pulse.


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Bob Goodman
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July 6, 2020 12:39 pm  
Posted by: @seth54

I agree it shouldn’t be overly complex to teach to kids, in fact I’ve been toying with the idea of teaching it as “running interference” so the idea of running is included and they get that they don’t have to pancake the guy, just wall him off and get in his way. 

That's the way I like.  A "pull and lead" assignment means there's no need to practice keeping a target in your sights while there's a tangle of bodies you're pulling around (although I do have a drill for that if the coach wants it that way); you just get out there and take the runner's path as if you were carrying the ball yourself.  2 leads, they take left and right of that path (or of each other).  3 leads, that's either left, right, and middle, or congested!

It needs to be practiced with the runner, even with no opposition for most of the reps, because there's a sweet spot of distance behind the lead for the runner to run.  Some coach the runner to be able to reach forward and touch the lead, but I think that's too close because an opponent can pile up the blocker too close for the runner to react unless the runner cuts his speed down.  (Some youth players will chicken out on defense and not try to do that, but don't count on that happening against all opponents.)  Too far behind and the defender can get into that space.  In practice the lead blocker should be able to stop short or hit the ground and the runner cut around him unimpeded.


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Bob Goodman
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July 6, 2020 12:57 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @seth54

@bob-goodman

Our standard rule for our PSG on most plays is to step with his inside foot to catch a slanting Nose, if the nose doesn’t slant his way, he continues on to cutoff the Mike. If the Mike is a stud and he misses him, he goes to the backside Backer. If the Mike is creeping in his Gap he takes him, most likely with a shoeshine.

As to pulling the BSG from the I formation, good luck getting him to the POA in time for it to matter.  

That’s crazy Bob.  The guard only has to go 2-3 yards if your play side line are blocking down.  If your play side don’t move their feet, the guard still only has about 4 yards at most to get  around the edge with 6” splits.  Align that deep back at 6-7 yards and the guard can get there or you need to check for a pulse.

It's not crazy when the post I was responding to was written before he wrote that he was using 6" splits.  Most I formation teams of 10Us would use wider splits than that.  I did say that if his C-G split was small enough and the G was fully recessed it might be feasible if it's a slow and deep enough toss play.  If the entire line is using 6" or smaller splits and the play side all block down as you wrote, then it's like the offense I put in in 2015, and the back side guard can get there in time even if the ball doesn't go deep.

The reason most I formation teams would use wider splits and not use a track blocking scheme is that the reason the coach chose I formation was to have the TB hitting any of those gaps with the OL on either side just keeping the hole open, not trying for any sideways movement of a DL, but just maintaining physical control of him long enough that he can't easily shuck the blocker aside to make the tackle.  The extreme case of that was Michael, who'd convert all the matchups to "on" blocks for that purpose.

Seth54's initial description, "mostly ISO, FB dive, Counter, Toss," would lead most coaches to assume something like what's in my second paragraph here, rather than 32wedge's single wing or my sidesaddle T (which is mostly a variation of single wing) style.

This post was modified 5 months ago 3 times by Bob Goodman

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32wedge
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July 6, 2020 1:21 pm  

@bob-goodman

 

Thank you for another wonderful dissertation.  Hopefully someone will read that, who isn't familiar with the base I Formation offense, and gain from your vast knowledge.

 

I was specifically replying to the section of the original post concerning adding a power play to the I Formation and Seth's question about how I block power.  I am sure you know what you get out of "assume".  

 

 


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Bob Goodman
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July 6, 2020 1:41 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge

@bob-goodman

 

Thank you for another wonderful dissertation.  Hopefully someone will read that, who isn't familiar with the base I Formation offense, and gain from your vast knowledge.

 

I was specifically replying to the section of the original post concerning adding a power play to the I Formation and Seth's question about how I block power.  I am sure you know what you get out of "assume".  

I know.  You usually get a useful discussion when someone doesn't give you all the details, and you assume that which is typical.  If you don't assume anything, then it takes longer to get to the point.  You'll either have assumed correctly, or they'll correct you, saying, no, we do it like this -- which is as good as if you'd asked the question.

Yes, there are teams that base out of a Markham-style double wing offense and then either convert to or change it up with a formation where one of the WBs has become a TB.  A different flavor of I formation, with narrow splits.  They may include iso plays, but they're not exactly geared to feature that sort of thing.

I would say that if you want to play that flavor of football, featuring one runner and using the line to get movement to open holes inside as well as get outside, you'd be better off with something like single wing, short punt, or beast, minimizing the ballhandling and getting another blocker out of the backfield.


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32wedge
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July 6, 2020 1:51 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

I know.  You usually get a useful discussion when someone doesn't give you all the details, and you assume that which is typical.  If you don't assume anything, then it takes longer to get to the point.  You'll either have assumed correctly, or they'll correct you, saying, no, we do it like this -- which is as good as if you'd asked the question.

Yes, there are teams that base out of a Markham-style double wing offense and then either convert to or change it up with a formation where one of the WBs has become a TB.  A different flavor of I formation, with narrow splits.  They may include iso plays, but they're not exactly geared to feature that sort of thing.

I would say that if you want to play that flavor of football, featuring one runner and using the line to get movement to open holes inside as well as get outside, you'd be better off with something like single wing, short punt, or beast, minimizing the ballhandling and getting another blocker out of the backfield.

I agree with that. 

 

I think Coach Potter asks so many questions so he doesn't waste his time dealing with tangents created by assumptions.

 


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CoachDP
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July 6, 2020 3:21 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge

I think Coach Potter asks so many questions so he doesn't waste his time dealing with tangents created by assumptions.

Yes, agreed.  Questions are usually asked broadly, even if they're meant specifically.  Add to that, there are so many right (and wrong) ways to do things, but without knowing the limitations of the coach (His experience?  Their league's rules?), there's no reason to go into great depth until/unless certain parameters are already known.

Example:  I had a coach call me last week with questions about running the Double Wing for the first time.  Even though we spoke for a couple of hours, I told him that I refused to go into too much detail about the offense until he had decided on his A) blocking scheme, B) whether they would play from a 2 or 3-point stance, C) whether they were off-setting their Fullback or not, and D) whether they would be using motion or not, E) whether their QB would be pitching the ball, or handing it off.  Until those aspects were determined (they weren't), there was no point in discussing how to exploit a specific approach or explaining what drills/fundamentals and how to teach them.  Why should we discuss the QB's footwork on Toss, if they were going to hand off the ball?  I also found out they aren't allowed to pull the BSG. No point in discussing the angle of the Guard's pull, if he can't.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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gumby_in_co
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July 6, 2020 5:53 pm  
Posted by: @seth54

I’m coaching 10U and will be working heavily with the OL this season. I have experience pulling since I played OG in the Wing T in HS, but I was looking for some opinions about pulling OGs at the youth level. We See a ton of 5-3 and we are an I formation based team, mostly ISO, FB dive, Counter, Toss. I was thinking about pulling the PSG, if he’s uncovered, on the Toss to lead. I’d also like to add a Power play and I’m debating if I should pull that BSG to wrap or just release him to try to get a LB. If you have done this and have any tips I’d appreciate it, if you tried it and weren’t successful I’d like to hear that too and what you did instead. 

Here's another approach.

A couple of years ago, we had a weird package that we called Cowboy. It was unbalanced and weird in a few ways that aren't important for this conversation.  Anyway, we have coached rules based blocking for several years.  It was either Inside gap, On, Linebacker or Playside gap, On, Linebacker, depending on the POA.  We are typically averse to pulling for reasons I won't get into, but this year, we decided to pull a guard on certain plays. Since we were unbalanced, our puller was the "center" of the line, so it doesn't matter which way we pulled.

When we decided to pull, rules went out the window.  The two guys either side of the puller would step towards each other to fill for the puller.  Everyone else on the line had to accommodate for that. So essentially, everyone steps inside. To account for all 1st level defenders, we "identify" on every play.  Everyone points to where they are going (except the puller). If your block isn't obvious on your 2nd step to the inside, "go hunting", which means go find a LB.

If the pulling guard is covered, no big deal.  The C and T will converge on him.  If the C is covered and steps to his right, no big deal because the LG will cover for him. We had a very smart center who would not put his hand on the ball until everyone on the line is pointing to the right person.  So if covered C is stepping right and pointing and he looks to his left and the LG is in La La land or pointing at something other than the zero tech, he will slap the LG on the helmet and get him right.

Again, we were unbalanced and pulling the long side guard, so only 1 tackle had to be taught to step toward the C.  You can do this balanced and pull either guard, but both T's need to understand what to do if their guard pulls. It really helps if your C is smart and will remind them.

Yes, they will screw it up more than once. A bigger challenge is finding a smart pulling guard, or for you, 2 smart pulling guards who know the difference between a Power pull and a Toss pull. 

I don't get wrapped up with defensive fronts. I don't know if it's really bad coaching or really good coaching (I suspect the former), but we never seem to see the same defensive front from one play to the next. I notice a lot of #60 is a 2 tech, but when #61 replaces him, he's a 3 or 4 tech. In youth football, defenders stubbornly refuse to cooperate and do what the X's and O's do on the chalk board. So why chase it? Walk up blitzers are treated as defensive linemen. Blitzer's from depth? Who cares? If he makes a TFL from depth, chances are he's guessing and will eventually be wrong. You'll figure out pretty quickly if he's good. If he makes 3 of those plays in a row, he's good. Call timeout and make sure that someone with no assignment picks him up. Tell the C not to put his hand on the ball until someone is pointing at the stud LB.  If that doesn't work, send your FB after him since the LB is going to the ball anyway. If that fails, stop pulling.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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