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spread offense blocking rule help -- I'm confused  

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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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Joined: 10 years ago
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August 6, 2019 9:54 pm  

Is there a playbook or something? The offense looks awesome from that thread and a dead-simple, easy-to-install power set is just what I need to make our spread plays more palatable, but I can't figure it out just from the video. 

Playbook? Nah. I've done a few for guys who asked for them, but I just don't think it's necessary. Not the way we run it. The only wrong way to run it is to not run it. Laugh at it. Tell me all the diabolical things you will do to stop it in its tracks. Tell me that it's not "real football". Then scream at your team as we put our Center in to run the ball after we're up 40.

As I've said, we run mega splits. However, we ran Beast with normal splits last Spring with an under sized team. It still worked. We like the giant splits for our own reasons. It just looks and feels "right".  Anyway, this is what we do.  Bold characters are eligible receivers. This is Beast Right Blast. Beast left is just flipped.

X                      G  C  G  T  T  Y
                                    Q H Z
                                S

X - Stalk blocks the CB. (run up to him, come to balance, then get in his way)

Short side Guard - Protect the gap between you and the C. Nothing more.

C - If a man is on you, he's your guy. If not, go find a linebacker

Long Guard to Y - Inside Gap, Man on, Linebacker. This means if someone is in your inside gap, he's yours. If not and someone is on you, he's yours. If neither, go find a linebacker. Note, you will have a VERY hard time convincing Y not to block out on a DE.

Z - Pat is outside of Y. Block the first linebacker to the inside

H - Kick out the EMLOS. This means to block out on the DE (typically) who is trained to contain or squeeze the C gap. This block is MUCH easier if the DE crosses the LOS. If not, H might have to dig him out. If the DE is good and won't cross the LOS, you will have to get a little creative. In our first or second beast drive of any game, my job is to call out blocking assignments on the edge until I find the combination that works. This might even mean sending my Y outside to get the DE. Then, I have to tell the backs what to do. I simply yell their name and the number I want them to block.

Q - Depends. Against a "meh" team, we have him block a linebacker. We call it "iso", but that's not really what it is. It's often, but not always the MLB aka "Mike". Sometimes, the other team has a stud who is making all the tackles. We will send Q after him. Rarely, they have a jackrabbit backside DE (we don't block him by default) who chases our RB down. I have much more patience for this than others. Before I send Q to block him, I will try to speed up our RB. As a last resort, I send Q to block the backside pursuer.

S - Find daylight. Get vertical. Look for a cutback. This is NOT a sweep. Sometimes the defensive alignment is begging us to bounce it outside. We'll call that if we see it.

When the backside pursuit starts consistently getting close to catching us, we will run the Counter. This is simply Q leading to the left while S starts his blast path to the right, then hands off to H, so Q and H are running left. Everyone else does their blast thing.

Then, we pass. Our favorite is running a corner or post/corner to Y. If the backside CB starts ignoring X, we throw to him. Occasionally, we will throw a fade or something to Z. It's hard for Z to get through the O and D lines. It's about impossible for Q and H to get through, so we don't throw to them very much.

As far as "go find a linebacker" . . . we realized that linebackers have a pesky habit of not standing in the same place for too long. An o-lineman might see a linebacker pre-snap and identify him as a target, but that LB is gone by the OL's 2nd step. So I tell them not to chase. Just go hunting. You're bound to find someone running around trying to make a tackle. I know this is a lot like "block somebody", but we do a lot of O vs D with lots of coaching eyes on them. So by game day, our guys have a ton of reps trying to find linebackers to block.

Here are 3 games of every single Beast play, good, bad and ugly. This is our mega splits at work (I wouldn't recommend it to a new coach, but as I stated, Beast works with tight splits as well).  I think you will learn a lot more watching the failures in 1/2 or 1/4 speed. We are in red.

Round 1 of the playoffs. We ran almost nothing but Beast this game. We were angry with the yellow team because they quit on us in the 3rd quarter in the regular season. So running the same play at them 45 times was our immature way of dealing with it.


Round 2 of the playoffs. This team figured out how to stop Beast. We barely won.


Championship. Slow start, but eventually got it going.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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systemspoet
(@systemspoet)
Copper
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 13
August 7, 2019 6:27 am  

ANd then listen to the answers...

working on it!

I love all the BEAST videos. It looks so simple to install too.  One slight concern is that these look like mostly U8 kids.  Is this viable for 6th grade football? 

I like how flexible it is.  Anyone have luck running it with the QB & a RB?  QB takes the gun snap, hands off, and kicks out on the backside?  That's how our spread runs anyhow.

On the topic of my original question, I'm digging in and drawing our the Gap, On, Lineback and Outside, On, Linebacker schemes vs a 5-3 defense just to get more familiar with them.  I've also got one of my assistants, who's stepping up to be our OL coach, doing the same thing.  Expect more questions.


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spidermac
(@spidermac)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 2386
August 7, 2019 7:01 am  

working on it!

I love all the BEAST videos. It looks so simple to install too.  One slight concern is that these look like mostly U8 kids.  Is this viable for 6th grade football? 

I like how flexible it is.  Anyone have luck running it with the QB & a RB?  QB takes the gun snap, hands off, and kicks out on the backside?  That's how our spread runs anyhow.

On the topic of my original question, I'm digging in and drawing our the Gap, On, Lineback and Outside, On, Linebacker schemes vs a 5-3 defense just to get more familiar with them.  I've also got one of my assistants, who's stepping up to be our OL coach, doing the same thing.  Expect more questions.

Actually...my son's HS team a few years back had a change of pace package that was beast...the had Athletic Dlineman and LBs as the three up backs, so yeah...

And I love to face a 5-3 defense...if you go with an unbalanced line, you are going to widen that defensive end (unless the coach is smart and sees it and shifts the front) and then you can run power underneath him all day long...

Back Side DE...not really worried about him...unless he is Jadvieon Clowney or something...if he is running down your back from behind, you need a different back who is going to put his cleat in the ground and go...if he is coming up the field hard, you hit him with counter underneath him, and that will slow him down πŸ™‚ We wan Counter as a little inside pitch to the second up back, the inside up back is a lead...quick hitter with a toss to him instead of a hand off mesh...and if the ball hits the ground, it's an incomplete pass...talk to the crew before hand and let them know that's how you do it so they won't get confused and call it a fumble πŸ™‚

Back to your question about a QB and a RB in the backfield behind the center I am assuming...yes, you can do that, but then it isn't beast πŸ™‚

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9368
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
August 7, 2019 7:12 am  

" E    T    N    T  E
    T  G  C  G  T

LT: DT
LG: N
C: N (C is blocking Man on/Man away aka MOMA)
RG: N
RT: T"

I'm getting you, I think.  Just to make sure I understand, if that play were an A-Gap dive not an off-tackle play, and the back is supposed to run between the center and right guard, is the right guard still supposed to double the Nose?  If so won't he be stepping right into the hole?  That is one of the things that confuses me.

Sorry I've come to this thread late, but my own team has occupied me.  Your question is exactly the one one of my players asked several years ago on that very assignment.  He asked me between reps so I just answered quickly, "It works with force."  That satisfied him.

What I'll tell you now is that he may momentarily be stepping thru where the hole theoretically existed, what he's doing is moving the opponent away from where you want the hole to open, and get his body between the opponent and the runner's path.  If the opponent anticipated the double team there and were strong enough to stone the guard, then sure, your blocker would be thrown into the hole, but if your opponent can do that against a double team, you should just never run there unless you can fake him out!


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Seabass
(@seabass)
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Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1217
August 7, 2019 7:14 am  

working on it!

I love all the BEAST videos. It looks so simple to install too.  One slight concern is that these look like mostly U8 kids.  Is this viable for 6th grade football? 

I like how flexible it is.  Anyone have luck running it with the QB & a RB?  QB takes the gun snap, hands off, and kicks out on the backside?  That's how our spread runs anyhow.

On the topic of my original question, I'm digging in and drawing our the Gap, On, Lineback and Outside, On, Linebacker schemes vs a 5-3 defense just to get more familiar with them.  I've also got one of my assistants, who's stepping up to be our OL coach, doing the same thing.  Expect more questions.

It will work for older kids.

When I was coaching Pop Warner Junior Midget (7/8th grade) we put a Beast package in 3 days before our league championship game. Opened our first series with it and went 80 yards...turned it over in the NZ but they had NO answer for it. We also went really fast.


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DREagle
(@coyouthcoach)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 897
August 7, 2019 7:17 am  

I think we actually had greater success with beast at the older levels.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9368
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
August 7, 2019 7:28 am  

If your kids can block and tackle (and they can, because both are a simple teach), it won't matter what scheme you run, you will be successful.  If your kids can't block and tackle, it won't matter what scheme you run, your kids won't be successful.

Actually if you're bad enough at any of those things, you'll lose.  You can have outstanding fundamentals, but if your scheme's bad enough you can still blow it.  You can have top-notch scheme, but if your fundamentals are bad enough you'll still stink up the field.  And by what "you have" of course I mean not what's in your head, but what your players have learned.

What this means is that to be competitive, you should first focus on all components being adequate.  Strengthen the weakest link in the chain first.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Posts: 9368
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Asst Coach
August 7, 2019 7:45 am  

I've seen Centers whose snap didn't match the way the QBs hands were to correctly receive the snap.

Which nobody caught for weeks of pre-season because they were practicing only in separate groups, right?

How about totally uncoordinated offensive backfield and line groups, where they were coaching assignments that didn't fit each other?  Or position coaches, or any coaches, teaching techniques that would never get used that season?


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 16984
North Carolina
High School
August 7, 2019 10:24 am  

You can have outstanding fundamentals, but if your scheme's bad enough you can still blow it.

Not at the youth level.  Because a scheme really isn't required.  I see a lot of guys trying to be the next Bill Walsh with their offense, when they're playing against defenses that aren't schemes, but formations.  If you're just coaching against a defensive formation, you can win with just good offensive fundamentals.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9368
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
August 7, 2019 10:37 am  

Not at the youth level.  Because a scheme really isn't required.  I see a lot of guys trying to be the next Bill Walsh with their offense, when they're playing against defenses that aren't schemes, but formations.  If you're just coaching against a defensive formation, you can win with just good offensive fundamentals.

Maybe we're referring to different orders of things as "scheme".  I'm including such things as having a fairly good idea of who (or where) to block.  Once the ball's snapped, if the defense was in any even halfway appropriate formation, if one of them sees thru a crack to the ball, they're going to do that.

Or such things as when the other team kicks off, when you should go for the ball.

It's possible that what you consider fundamentals or basic skills includes some of what I'm calling scheme.


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systemspoet
(@systemspoet)
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Posts: 13
August 7, 2019 11:11 am  

Not at the youth level.  Because a scheme really isn't required.  I see a lot of guys trying to be the next Bill Walsh with their offense, when they're playing against defenses that aren't schemes, but formations.  If you're just coaching against a defensive formation, you can win with just good offensive fundamentals.

--Dave

Maybe we're referring to different orders of things as "scheme".  I'm including such things as having a fairly good idea of who (or where) to block.  Once the ball's snapped, if the defense was in any even halfway appropriate formation, if one of them sees thru a crack to the ball, they're going to do that.

Or such things as when the other team kicks off, when you should go for the ball.

It's possible that what you consider fundamentals or basic skills includes some of what I'm calling scheme.

I think you are both right.  Without an understanding of who to block and why, there's no chance of success.  I witnessed that last year.  Without an understand of how to drive block, block down, stalk block, all you have is the vague hope that the other team won't know who to block or how to do it.

Last year we really had neither, but we got away with it (a little... two wins is a high water mark for this age group) because we were big and mean.  This year, we'll have some of each.  We're not as big as last year's team but we're faster and smarter.  It remains to be seen how mean we are, the kids just started hitting yesterday.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 16984
North Carolina
High School
August 7, 2019 12:47 pm  

Maybe we're referring to different orders of things as "scheme".  I'm including such things as having a fairly good idea of who (or where) to block.  Once the ball's snapped, if the defense was in any even halfway appropriate formation, if one of them sees thru a crack to the ball, they're going to do that.

Or such things as when the other team kicks off, when you should go for the ball.

It's possible that what you consider fundamentals or basic skills includes some of what I'm calling scheme.

I dunno, Bob.  I'm having a hard time following your point.  So I'll try my part again:  I don't think you need an offensive scheme if you aren't playing against a defensive scheme.  I do think an offensive scheme will make you a better offense.  I do think an offensive scheme will make it much easier for the offensive players to be successful.  But if you spent your time teaching your offense the fundamentals of different blocks, you could be successful by simply running an inside play, an outside play, a misdirection play and a pass play.  You wouldn't have to teach them a "scheme" (i.e., bonafide offensive system).  By teaching a down block, a base block, a double team, a reach block and a simple pass protection, you could be successful.  You wouldn't have to learn a Single Wing/Double Wing/Wing-T/Jack, JJ, Clark, Cisar, or know how to teach it.  Are you a better coach with a better offense if you learn one of those schemes?  Absolutely.  But a fundamentally-sound team without an allegiance to scheme can win at the youth level.

However, I rarely see a youth offense that's fundamentally sound.  I see too much of an emphasis of time on trying to install a scheme without any reliance on the fundamentals that are necessary to make the scheme successful.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9368
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
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August 7, 2019 2:20 pm  

Ever coach all star teams with either one or no practice sessions?  They all have the basic skills.  They may or may not have come from teams that played systematic offense or defense, but it doesn't matter because they were from different teams.  Maybe you get an hour or half an hour during warmups to install everything.  But there's one advantage the defense has: They know to go to the ball, and if you leave them a crack they might find it.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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Posts: 3902
August 8, 2019 12:11 pm  

If you're looking for a beast playbook, reach out to coachparker. I will vouch for his materials 100%. His Powerwing Beast e-book runs $20. I spend that on mouthpieces before game 1.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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