Notifications

[Sticky] What's Difficult About the Pull?  

Page 6 / 7
  RSS

terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
Bronze
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 166
United States
September 22, 2019 11:59 am  

And the excuse often given is that their coaches had to “dumb down” whatever the blocking scheme should be, so that it is no longer a scheme

The ironic part is that if they did "dumb it down", it frees up time to do more things. I simplified my scheme after learning about how Coach Gregory and Coach Cox do things. Since even the backups know who to block, I've been able to install more plays this year.


ReplyQuote
spidermac
(@spidermac)
Gold
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 2386
September 22, 2019 1:01 pm  

And the excuse often given is that their coaches had to “dumb down” whatever the blocking scheme should be, so that it is no longer a scheme.  The other issue is that there is no “blocking scheme” for whatever their made-up, self-invented offense is, where the extent of their “teaching” is, “All you have to do is block the man in front of you.”

—Dave

nd the thing is...they do not have to...remember the new AC I mentioned...I suggested that he should talk to the oline between series to see if the defense is doing what we expected...well, this past weekend he did it, and the defense was not doing what we expected...and he made adjustments to the scheme to deal with what they were actually doing...we had folks folding back on a difficult 2 tech, and without seeing the film, I think the boys did great (we were tearing holes in the defense after the adjustments were given to them)...he had his dry erase and was coaching them up while the defense was out...this week we are putting in ISO scheme 🙂

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


ReplyQuote
CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 16882
North Carolina
High School
September 24, 2019 7:11 pm  

I simplified my scheme after learning about how Coach Gregory and Coach Cox do things.

TPJ, how so?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


ReplyQuote
terrypjohnson
(@terrypjohnson)
Bronze
Joined: 12 months ago
Posts: 166
United States
September 25, 2019 7:18 am  

I switched it to where no one would block "on". Depending on the opponent, I will do one of two things:

1) Most of the time, I use SAB blocking (inspired by Coach Gregory) with the BSG and/or BST pulling. I do this to try negate stunts and blitzes. I even have the backs do it when I run Coach Parker's Beast Tank plays (I don't pull on these, though)

2) If the play includes "Wash" (Coach Cox's term), the playside OL blocks down and the backside steps with the inside foot and reach blocks.

The only other type of blocking I use is wedge. They never forget this because, "that's the one where we move together to hit Coach"

This is what's worked for me so far this season. Hope it helps someone!

Coach Terry


ReplyQuote
PSLCOACHROB
(@pslcoachrob)
Kryptonite
Joined: 8 years ago
Posts: 12408
October 7, 2019 3:43 am  

We never had to dumb down our offense. We tried different things through the years. Some worked. Some didn't. I will say some teams or units caught on quicker than others. That either allowed us to install more or we installed less. We did other things to simply things for the kids. I have mentioned it at least a 100 times here, in the dw we only pulled one. There are a bunch of reasons why. At first it was about stupid cutting penalties and the tackle clogging things up. Later it became more about not having to spend time teaching and drilling the cut which I think is much harder to install than a pull. The technique used for pulling changed dramatically over the years which helped as well.


ReplyQuote
Coyote
(@coyote)
Copper
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 51
3rd - 5th
Coordinator
January 28, 2020 12:54 pm  

Greetings

I may be too late to be of assistance, here, the thread is a little dated, but...

We're a Buck and Belly wing-t team - 3rd & 4th grade - we draft, so we have a 'combine' in which we get to run drills with the kids (they're grouped, the groups rotate around) and see the kids twice before the draft (Kids who miss the draft get pulled out a hat).

Our combine, the 1st thing we do is set up a sweep blocking drill with 2 Dummies.  Kids form 2 lines on the snake, at the OG spots, we teach  the near side to log,  & the backside to pull to kick out the 'contain'.  (Kids switch lines)   We start w/ the G's in our scouting.  The drill shows us something of the agility of the kids, if they're coach-able, and willing to pop a dummy - significant in seeing if a RB type might be willing to block.  But mostly we want to see how the kids move.  

We really don't have problems teaching the pull.  When we do, its usually the backside G getting lazy (claim they couldn't get through / got caught up in the wash, but  film usually says otherwise).   By starting off looking for OG's from day one, we usually can find the kids who are suited to it.  

  • Sometimes we only have one G pulling, sometimes 2 G's.  Depends on the kids we actually get to pick, and if we need to double team a particularly difficult DLineman.
  • Often  - for all my references to 'slobber-knockers' and such - all we really need is to run interference, get a body between the ball carrier and the defender and let the RB make a cut. 
  • Most seasons, our OG's are 3rd graders who have played RB in the past, and will as 4th graders.  When we get a lead, we switch the OGs and RBs up and let the OG's carry the ball.   Cross training.  Also takes some of the pressure off from parents who want their kids to be RB's not OLine & the pressure that comes when folk claim we're running up the score.  (Hey, he's a lineman, whaddaya want?)

FWIW, we've  yet to play another team that pulls OLine at our age group, neither league nor non-league opponents.  One of the really good regional teams (also a Wing T team - heavy Jet / Rocket) we've met doesn't pull or trap.  After the game I asked the coach why, he felt it took too much time to coach.   Later learned he was Back when he played and none of his assistants had played OLine in the wing T.  I suspect its just not important enough to him to learn. 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


ReplyQuote
CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 16882
North Carolina
High School
January 28, 2020 1:58 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

We really don't have problems teaching the pull. 

--Nor should you, or anyone else.  It's not a difficult teach.

FWIW, we've  yet to play another team that pulls OLine at our age group, neither league nor non-league opponents. 

--Not surprising.  Thus, this thread.

One of the really good regional teams (also a Wing T team - heavy Jet / Rocket) we've met doesn't pull or trap. 

--Then they're not a Wing-T team.

After the game I asked the coach why, he felt it took too much time to coach. 

-- 🤔 

Later learned he was Back when he played and none of his assistants had played OLine in the wing T.  I suspect its just not important enough to him to learn. 

--People won't teach what they don't know.  But they'll always have an excuse as if they did.

--Dave

 

 

 

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


Coyote liked
ReplyQuote
Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9343
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
January 28, 2020 11:06 pm  
Posted by: @coyote

We really don't have problems teaching the pull.  When we do, its usually the backside G getting lazy (claim they couldn't get through / got caught up in the wash, but  film usually says otherwise).

What does the film say?  Took the play "off"?  Yielded right of way?  Slow-slacked it?


ReplyQuote
Coyote
(@coyote)
Copper
Joined: 2 months ago
Posts: 51
3rd - 5th
Coordinator
January 29, 2020 4:39 pm  

 

Posted by: @bob-goodman

What does the film say?  Took the play "off"?  Yielded right of way?  Slow-slacked it?

 Usually, we see the kid was just loafing it.   I do recall once, the kid looked hesitant, as when  asked later (had to show him the play) he said he forgot which play was called and just guessed.  Couple times tho, the Center didn't block the correct side, or had his head on the wrong side, and allowed penetration which the BSG got knocked of his route.  But usually, its just plain ol' laziness.  

Umm.... why does that 6 ft tall 9 yr old have a goatee...?


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 22817
January 29, 2020 10:12 pm  

For me football is all about the what ifs. Rarely if ever is every snap the same for all 4 quarters. All 22 positions need to learn the what ifs. The older they get the more what ifs you can responsibly teach the players. Pulling is wrought with what ifs and a rather expensive teach. Want to run trap? Use a sniffer and run no pull traps. Want to overload. Use unbalanced lines. Want to kickout....use a back. Need a lead....use a back.  

Example. Want to trap an odd front? Fine. Did you practice how to trap a 4 and a 5 tech?  The Bear front? The next week you get an even front. So do you trap the 2 or the 4 tech?  Do they use double 1's?

Do any of these teams stem? Are they a mixture playing over or under? Are they two gap read and react? 

I just described 25 unique what ifs for 6-8 unique positions. 

Now lets teach them about kickouts and lead pulls.... if the season hasn't ended by now. 😎 

Pulling is cool...and fun....somewhat effective and a waste of time. 

That said....on 3rd and 8...beautiful play....perfect call. 

https://www.facebook.com/MattBowenSports/videos/875254669580268/

 

This post was modified 4 weeks ago by mahonz

What is beautiful, lives forever.


32wedge liked
ReplyQuote
Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 9 years ago
Posts: 9343
New Jersey
3rd - 5th
Asst Coach
January 30, 2020 11:29 am  
Posted by: @mahonz

Pulling is wrought with what ifs and a rather expensive teach. Want to run trap? Use a sniffer and run no pull traps. Want to overload. Use unbalanced lines. Want to kickout....use a back. Need a lead....use a back.

If you're going to go that far, then unless you want to wedge, you might as well increase line splits.  If you don't need OL to be able to cover ground sideways behind their teammates, the line might as well occupy more space.  If you're already using big splits, then there's not much attraction to pulling.

I'm wondering now what's an easier key for the defense: a pulling OL, or a blocking back?  I think it's a matter of where, and how many places, the second-level defender has to look.  If you can have a lead blocker coming from any of several places, and top that with the threat for an OL to release in front and cut you off before you even get to the hole, that's got to be hard to key if you divide up responsibilities by the gaps.  Like if you see an OL disappear behind teammates, that gives you a good idea which direction the play's going, but not which gap.  But following the lead back in the "I" is probably an easier diagnosis.  A potential wham blocker from the wing might be the hardest to pick up and prepare yourself against.

I think you meant fraught, not wrought.  You could mean "wrought", like to say pulling is made out of what-ifs, or made with what-ifs in mind as a kind of tool, but "fraught" is more likely, like to say pulling is weighted down with what-ifs.  Think of the connection between "fraught" and "freight" -- at least I'm guessing offhand there's a connection there.

We must be deep in the off-season if I'm focusing on language.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 22817
January 30, 2020 11:59 am  
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @mahonz

Pulling is wrought with what ifs and a rather expensive teach. Want to run trap? Use a sniffer and run no pull traps. Want to overload. Use unbalanced lines. Want to kickout....use a back. Need a lead....use a back.

If you're going to go that far, then unless you want to wedge, you might as well increase line splits.  If you don't need OL to be able to cover ground sideways behind their teammates, the line might as well occupy more space.  If you're already using big splits, then there's not much attraction to pulling.

I'm wondering now what's an easier key for the defense: a pulling OL, or a blocking back?  I think it's a matter of where, and how many places, the second-level defender has to look.  If you can have a lead blocker coming from any of several places, and top that with the threat for an OL to release in front and cut you off before you even get to the hole, that's got to be hard to key if you divide up responsibilities by the gaps.  Like if you see an OL disappear behind teammates, that gives you a good idea which direction the play's going, but not which gap.  But following the lead back in the "I" is probably an easier diagnosis.  A potential wham blocker from the wing might be the hardest to pick up and prepare yourself against.

I think you meant fraught, not wrought.  You could mean "wrought", like to say pulling is made out of what-ifs, or made with what-ifs in mind as a kind of tool, but "fraught" is more likely, like to say pulling is weighted down with what-ifs.  Think of the connection between "fraught" and "freight" -- at least I'm guessing offhand there's a connection there.

We must be deep in the off-season if I'm focusing on language.

I also do not believe you need to be foot to foot to run a good wedge. And I agree with you on the reading. My use of wrought....the shaping, altering, molding. Which is pretty much everything football....and metal fencing. 😎 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
Coach Kyle2
(@coach-kyle2)
Copper
Joined: 3 weeks ago
Posts: 15
February 1, 2020 5:30 pm  

@bob-goodman

It's definitely easy to follow a back and hard to follow a pulling guard. Furthermore, as a linebacker you get used to seeing certain things, like looking for a hand off. Pulling lineman can be very confusing and really help to hide the ball. You'd think it's a no brainier that lineman pulling leads you to the ball, but if you're not looking for it or you're not used to it, then it's pretty confusing. I played a middle linebacker in high school, and I remembered how easy it was to read a pulling guard, but when they didn't pull, I was a step slower.

It's not the only thing to consider though. A lot of times you have complete potatoes for lineman. They may pull and just clog up the hole. People could get in through the hole the lineman left. When analyzing film of pullers, I found that pulling can be completely ineffective, and the play can work anyways because the defense does weird stuff. Some offenses like the Wing-T require pulling, and you really get a picture of what good and bad pulling can do for you.

I'm a fan of only pulling when you get the hang of it, and I want to run offenses that don't rely on pulling to be successful.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by Coach Kyle2

ReplyQuote
gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
Platinum
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 3876
February 3, 2020 1:03 pm  
Posted by: @mahonz

For me football is all about the what ifs. Rarely if ever is every snap the same for all 4 quarters.

Having spent the last 2 seasons watching 2nd and 3rd grade film, I agree 100%. How many times did I call you to ask, "Is this really a 10 man front?", or "Do they really have 10 players on the offensive line?". Trying to figure out what defensive front we'll be going against is useless. Kids don't reliably line up where they are supposed to and the sure as hell don't do what they're supposed to after the snap.

After your pin/pull experiment about 5 years ago, I really broke down what we (the football world) are trying to accomplish by pulling. Send an OL to the 2nd level, hopefully with a little bit of leverage. After awhile, I realized I can do that with GOL rules. We just miss out on the double teams. No big deal because double teams are bad for us with our splits. 

Then, 7th grade Spring with our Cowboy experiment, we had a couple of pulling guard plays. These plays hit HUGE 70% of the time as long as they were set up properly. The thing is, I couldn't find a single clip in that entire season where our pulling G made contact with anyone. I did see a few 2nd level defenders decide to run elsewhere rather than take on a big boy running full tilt. For me, the payoff just wasn't worth the investment.

Having said that, we struggled with finding a blocking back at times last season. I'll keep the pulling idea in my back pocket in case we run into that again.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 22817
February 3, 2020 4:30 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @mahonz

For me football is all about the what ifs. Rarely if ever is every snap the same for all 4 quarters.

Having spent the last 2 seasons watching 2nd and 3rd grade film, I agree 100%. How many times did I call you to ask, "Is this really a 10 man front?", or "Do they really have 10 players on the offensive line?". Trying to figure out what defensive front we'll be going against is useless. Kids don't reliably line up where they are supposed to and the sure as hell don't do what they're supposed to after the snap.

After your pin/pull experiment about 5 years ago, I really broke down what we (the football world) are trying to accomplish by pulling. Send an OL to the 2nd level, hopefully with a little bit of leverage. After awhile, I realized I can do that with GOL rules. We just miss out on the double teams. No big deal because double teams are bad for us with our splits. 

Then, 7th grade Spring with our Cowboy experiment, we had a couple of pulling guard plays. These plays hit HUGE 70% of the time as long as they were set up properly. The thing is, I couldn't find a single clip in that entire season where our pulling G made contact with anyone. I did see a few 2nd level defenders decide to run elsewhere rather than take on a big boy running full tilt. For me, the payoff just wasn't worth the investment.

Having said that, we struggled with finding a blocking back at times last season. I'll keep the pulling idea in my back pocket in case we run into that again.

Last year when we played GA I remember you telling me that #8 was pulling. So I proceeded to watch William come in from behind the puller and tackle the RB. I dont believe pulling to lead a sweep is a good idea. Trap? Have at it. Same side KO....have at it. Long pulling to lead....iffy at best. I say you experiment with it heavily this Spring. See what sticks. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
Page 6 / 7
Share: