Notifications
Clear all

Camera information for the Photo tech guys  

Page 1 / 3

Wildcatcoach
(@wildcatcoach)
Copper
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 35
Topic starter  

Coach's we use a Sony HDR-Sr11 High def camera to video our home games. We make highlight videos etc.. for the kids.  We have been using a regular high 8 tape camcorder for our scouting which is legal in our rules, most teams scout each other.  I am looking for a moderate priced HD 'Hard Drive'
camcorder, we don't need high definition for scout videos. Anyone have any experience or could recommend a camera??? Doesn't have to be Mac compliant just HD so we can download quickly and not have to watch all games. Each scout video is given to the proper coach for their level.

Thanks,
Wildcatcoach - Mark


Quote
headtrip
(@headtrip)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 292
 

most of the camera's that you would be looking for are going to share similar hdd space, resolution and other functionality. firewire seems to be on it's way out so most will probably be usb. the big two items to look for are optical zoom (never use digital zoom) and chip number and size (ccd or cmos). some prefer ccd to cmos, i personally have no preference.

with cameras that will be so similar the biggest factor in your decision is probably going to be functionality. if you are going to pass the recording duty around, how easy it is to use the camera will be a big deal.

i would recommend going to walmart or bestbuy etc... and playing with a few of the cameras in your price range. they are all going to be too similar from a specs point of view to make any difference, it's going to be ability to record and edit footage that will make the difference in your decision.


ReplyQuote
defensewins
(@defensewins)
Silver
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 662
 

I bought the cheapest HD hard drive camera I could find a year and a half ago at best buy.  It's a panasonic and I love it! 

If I were you (and dead set on HD and hard drive), I would take headtrip's advice: go to the store and play around.  Find something that your wife could easily run and you got yourself a camera. 


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 6431
 

Guys - I'm looking from scratch here - camera to record my games, etc.  I have nothing as it is now.

I am on a budget of $0, LOL.  I mean, not literally, but you get what I mean.

So what are the absolute minimum "must haves" to be able to record games, and then edit them in a basic way?  What level of hi def if that's necessary?  What about compatibility with editing software, and what "free" editing software is out there for PC (no Mac)?  I don't need crazy editing ability - for now, just the ability to edit the dead space out between plays, then it would be nice to be able to separate the plays into clips that I could put into offense, defense, or even eventually make highlight videos (again, effects not necessary).  The ability to upgrade editing software in the future might be good, depending on how limited I am up front.  I understand the hard drive cameras limit you to the included software to edit, but not sure how sophisticated you can got on that.


ReplyQuote
headtrip
(@headtrip)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 292
 

Guys - I'm looking from scratch here - camera to record my games, etc.  I have nothing as it is now.

I am on a budget of $0, LOL.  I mean, not literally, but you get what I mean.

So what are the absolute minimum "must haves" to be able to record games, and then edit them in a basic way?  What level of hi def if that's necessary?  What about compatibility with editing software, and what "free" editing software is out there for PC (no Mac)?  I don't need crazy editing ability - for now, just the ability to edit the dead space out between plays, then it would be nice to be able to separate the plays into clips that I could put into offense, defense, or even eventually make highlight videos (again, effects not necessary).  The ability to upgrade editing software in the future might be good, depending on how limited I am up front.  I understand the hard drive cameras limit you to the included software to edit, but not sure how sophisticated you can got on that.

minimum must haves: the highest optical zoom you can get (10-20x is about the usual range for a consumer camera, and more than enough zoom). hi def isn't necessary, but i'd go ahead and get it anyway to future proof your purchase. you'll see terms like 720p, 1080i, and 1080p. progressive(p) is better. most hdd cameras will record at true 1920x1080p, that's something to look for.

editing: the problem with hd is that it takes a special program and usually a higher end pc to edit. hd is processor heavy. hd recordings are also stored as a different file type. avchd seems to be becoming the standard. windows movie maker (which is free and should be on your computer) can't edit avchd. if you record in hd and convert to standard def, the video is usually saved as an mpeg video which windows movie maker can edit.


ReplyQuote
defensewins
(@defensewins)
Silver
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 662
 

I know that you asked about cameras but... there may be another way to go...

DSV Express.  It is a PC football editing software.  The full versions go for 5k to 6k.  DSV Express = FREE. 

Using DSV Express, you would be able to chop your games into Offense, Defense and Special Teams (in about 1.5 minutes).  Doing that saves the clips into a file.  Import that file into an existing PC editor (I believe PC's do come with one) and you have yourself a DVD the way you wanted it. 

If you wanted to, you never have to make a DVD at all.  Here's why...The reason that DSV gives DSV Express version to coaches for free is that it wants to expand its online customer base.  With DSV Express, you can upload your games (and it's password protected) to the net so your coaches (players, parents, grandma that lives across the country can too.  you control the access.  some teams have used this as a fundraiser too) can view just the offense, just the defense or just special teams all online without ever having to make a DVD or copies.  You capture the game on your computer, ODK it (again, 1.5 minutes), and hit sync.  Walk to the fridge and grab yourself a cold one.  DONE. 

THE CATCH:  There are very few HD/Hard drive cameras that work WELL will DSV (as to the original post).  I know that some do exist, I just don't know which ones.  Regular ol' miniDV tapes are the absolute best with DSV (and much cheaper I might add). 

I do know that there are some other features of DSV Express, but again, I don't know exactly what they are.  DSV is kind of secretive for whatever reason.  You won't find this information in an ad anywhere (probably because they want you to drop  six months of mortgage payments on the full version).  But, if you go to http://www.dsvusa.com/contact.html you could get someone to get the ball rolling for you.


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 6431
 

d-wins - thanks, I'll have to check that out.  So if I understand what you're saying, you're not sure what cameras will work well with DVS express?  Interesting...

Trying to bait the wife about recording our son playing baseball too, but she's seeing through it, LOL.  Actually, to be fair, she's all for it but our funds are just too stretched right now.


ReplyQuote
ZACH
 ZACH
(@bucksweep58)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9425
 

i bought my camera on www.newegg.com this site is awesome... the quality is amazing the options on the camera are awesome and i got it for 40% cheaper then best buy... i have the coaches software from my colelge ill have to find the name of the program but i can upload and it will chop it play for play, it has a white board on the left so you can draw the formation and play, it will calculate how many times the formation is used if you enter that in, and it came with a remote thats a usb insert and its awesome... great thing about this also is it can calculate success by formation ie you draw up double wing and insert a 6-2 and put in 6-2 man, and put in the option for all holes in the offensive line it will predict the success of the defense vs the offense haah i love this software but seldom use it to prep for game more so to critique my own guys

I can explain it to you, I can't understand if for you.


ReplyQuote
RedZone
(@redzone)
Copper
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 7
 

B.C. what kind of camera do you have?  I watched your spread clip
and I loved the quality of the video.  I hope you don't mind sharing.  LOL

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall."


ReplyQuote
mzelsmannjr
(@mzelsmannjr)
Copper
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 47
 

Any info you can give on the software would be awesome, too.

Ogden Tigers Jr. Midgets (7th grade)   www.wffl.com


ReplyQuote
defensewins
(@defensewins)
Silver
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 662
 

I'm not seeing the "Express" version or a free version.

Am I missing something?

No, they aren't advertising the Express version.  To get DSV Express, you need to contact a sales rep.  This is a link to Express:  http://www.dsvusa.com/Express/expresstraining.html

Here is a post from a coach using Express (on a different and local message board):

"This was our first year with DSV (EXPRESS) the free version for online trade. Sadly we didnt trade with anyone the entire season LOL. But i will share a few things that DSV EXPRESS did help with.

It limited the number of DVDS that needed to be burned. I started film about 11:45 and would finish around 1 after capturing and ODK'ing and maybe a chat with [XXX} about the game.. we only had 1 angle to capture so that made life easy. While capturing at the same time i would make the master dvd make copies for trade and other coaches.. Yes.. we still used DVDs.

Now here is where DSV Anywhere came in.. have you ever been in a staff meeting.. and you are using a dvd.. and cant find the damn fast forward or rewind button on the dvd player? We eliminated that this year because all of our film was synced while i was sleeping  so on Saturday during our meetings i would simply load DSV Anywhere and bring up last nights game.

We would go through and if they wanted to see a play again.. it was a mouse click away.. (wish we had a remote).. If they wanted to see it in slow mo.. it was a mouse click away.

But i guess the biggest thing that helped was the ability to make cutups! So.. I was in charge of scout O.. so for film.. guess what.. id have the opponent base plays cutup and ready. .this takes away time from distractions.. during film sessions. Now im sure if we had to full use of DSV we would of gone crazy.. but DSV EXPRESS got in done for us.

If you have dsv how did you use it this year? If you dont have DSV?? why are you stuck in VHS era  im sure [XXXX] is willing to hook you up with DSV EXPRESS."

If you can't find your local DSV rep, let me know and I'll give you the contact information of our HS's DSV rep.


ReplyQuote
replayguy
(@replayguy)
Copper
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 15
 

There really isn't a big need for HD for coaching purposes.  Its more about what's happening rather than how absolutely pretty it looks.  With so much of it going online with small screens HD doesn't really buy you anything resolution wise.  HD does help in some regard to color etc but really secondary issues in my opinion.  I've been making HS recruiting videos/DVDs and most of the time these end up one time or another in the assistants crappy 22" standard def TV anyway. 

More important is optics.  One of my cheap favorites is the Sony DCR-HC52. It is miniDV tape format and an incredible 40x Optical zoom with a Carl Zeiss lens.  It also has a firewire output which is necessary for importing to computers.  The last one I bought (Yes I buy many as I give them away in some deals) cost me about $175.  MiniDV cameras can easily produce AVI files that are used in a lot of cut-up software packages.  For example one option in my (ridiculously reasonable priced youth package) gamedayFILMZ directly accesses it from the camera.  However the disadvantage of this is that it takes real time to upload it to the computer.  That is why my software package also accepts video from HD cameras such as the Sony dcr-sr45 (mpg format) and Pansonic SDR-H40P (MOD format.)  The advantage of these cameras is that you can upload as fast as you can transfer files.  The only thing you need to be sure of is that they generate file names in sequential order so that you can easily play them back in played order.  (Another great thing about the Panasonic is that each MOD file has a corresponding MOI file which contains the starting time stamp for each clip.  This is useful for gluing together two angles of video in the same clip back to back.  (However it does not work for gluing side by side as you need frame by frame date code information. So for those applications miniDV (time stamped) AVI works the best.  For cutting up scouting games that arrive on DVDs the best thing to do is convert them to AVI using a free converter and then cutting it up with the cheap ScenalyzerLive editing tool.  Then it can be uploaded and broke down as any other game. 

I wasn't aware that youth teams were allowed to exchange scouting videos. (In our area you are not even allowed to film other teams you are not playing at the moment.)  But my product includes at no extra cost the ability to share cut-up games with other teams.  I didn't know this was applicable to youth teams but for High School teams I'm also now offering (just to recover my costs) a stand alone game sharing for just $50/team/season.  If that is something that would be useful for youth I could make it available.

Hope this helps.

www.gamedayfilmz.com


ReplyQuote
replayguy
(@replayguy)
Copper
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 15
 

I was having an off forum discussion with one of the forum members about this and figured I'd share it here as well.

Thought I might explain the issues, as I see them, with Hi-Def camcorders (particularly consumer and pro-sumer models.)  In my opinion you should think hard before deciding to use a Hi-Def camcorder just for football videos. While it may be OK for bright sunny games it won't be so good for night games. This is because the total surface area of the sensor is basically the same size as a standard resolution camera so since there are more pixels for the same surface area the pixels are each smaller which limits the amount of light which can hit each pixel. Therefore in darker situations you will need slower shutter speeds to get the proper exposure which will result in image smear. And it looks really bad on stopped frames which is an important aspect of film analysis.  What's much more important for football video (again in my opinion) is good optics and what is called a 'film', 'frame' or '30 frame progressive" mode.  This allows for crystal clear stop action shots instead of smeared stopped shots.  HERE  is a great camera (a bit spendy) that is both HD and SD and has progressive frame rate. (Look at the picture difference in the middle of the page under progressive mode.)  Its only down side other than price is that it only has a 10X optical zoom. (Don't use digital zoom as you may know.) I've had good luck with the sony DCR-HC52 which has a 40x optical zoom but, sigh, no progressive frame rate exposure. [EDIT] Just found out its discontinued.[/EDIT]

There is an Hi-Def bandwagon but really a lot of it is just marketing. (Unless you have great light and if the real purpose is to sit back and enjoy the game as entertainment.)  In our area our high schools are fortunate in that the booster clubs pull in ridiculous amounts of money and we could buy any Hi-Def camera we want.  But all the high end high schools generally buy the Canon GL2 which is a standard definition camera with superb optics with 20X optical zoom, optical (not digital) stabilization and a progressive frame mode but cost $2000 each.  My point is we (and the other schools) could buy Hi-Def cameras but they are not really for coaching videos. But $2000 dollars cameras aren't the norm for youth football either. I suppose the thought is you get a general purpose Hi-Def camera and use it for both football and general usage. Or you could get something like THIS or THIS dedicated for sports.

Our high school use two Canon GL2s per game and one Sony DCR HCR-20 for the wide shot. I can show you the difference, HERE. This is the same play taken by all three cameras. Overall I like the cheap Sony/JVC as they compare well with other lower end models and frankly for stop action analysis for most games are better than Hi-Def for the reasons mentioned above.  Finally I'm not aware what the situation is with embedded time codes in Hi-Def camcorders.  Embedded time codes are needed if you ever desire the 'stitched' sync's plays as shown in the GL2 sample shown in the link.

I'd be interested if there are other opinions.  These multitude of formats are a real nightmare for providing support in football video coaching tools.

www.gamedayfilmz.com


ReplyQuote
CoachTech
(@coachtech)
Bronze
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 467
 

After years of experimenting , I found that I could get almost Hi-def resolution from my basic Sony Handycam. It's all in how you handle the video files.

You simply have to preserve the original file format until the final cuts. Then convert or compress. You lose a lot less frames.
IMHO

Change is Inevitable, Personal Growth is optional, choose wisely.


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 6431
 

This is turning into a great thread.  To me, the camera's only half the battle.  I then need to figure out how to edit it.  Currently, I edit using my HS's software, and I'm not sure what it is.  It basically plays the video in a top window, and allows me to drop markers in to start and stop clips.  Then I can take the clips and put them into groups of clips that I'm building - say one for full game, one for offense only, one for defense only.  There are effects I can use too, but I don't.

So, to get away from having to use the HS's equipment - here's what I need/want, in priority order out of both camera and software:

1.  Game video for coaches:
a.  That can be cut up basically as above - just need to be able to edit down to the plays/clips that can be dropped into multiple groupings of clips.  I'd prefer not to have to rely on pause and play, as last year that resulted in losing parts of plays if the operator was a bit slow on the trigger.
b.  Be able to post to Vimeo (so size of file is an issue) and Youtube.
c.  I guess burning to DVD would be nice - maybe not necessary given Youtube/Vimeo, but nice.

2.  Personal game video for my own use to record my son's games.  Again, would be nice to be able to just cut out his plays and drop them into a highlight file.  Would be again uploading to Youtube or Vimeo.

3.  Highlight vids for parents - not sure I want to do this, and probably is down the road a ways.  Obviously, if it can do the above, it can make a basic highlight vid, but here I'd be more interested in some very basic effects and or able to put a soundtrack over it, etc.

My limitations are: 1. $ - I can't really justify buying editing software, so ideally it would have to work with windows movie maker, which I believe is pretty much on most PC's (no MAC); and 2.  Knowledge - I am NOT sophisticated using this at all.


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 3
Share: