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jrk5150
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Topic starter  

Wasn't sure about the title, can edit that if someone thinks of a better.  BUT, the point of this is to maybe outline some strategies/tactics to counter articles that inevitably get posted in social media that are anti-football.  Maybe post some of those articles and have people weigh in on them.  

Reason I started this - someone on my city's unofficial FB page asked when our local PW registrations would be.  Of course, some ass-clown decides to post this article: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cte-symptoms-youth-football-before-age-12/?fbclid=IwAR1jzxCvsUBDDAOS7vgQTo6CxwqoVuhLqES9IUDmOlahFzYPLzkYVFJ-Ogg

My response to him was fairly sarcastic, perhaps too much so:

So hang on - their sample here is a tiny, minuscule subset of the population that are NFL players, then they further narrow it to a tiny, minuscule subset of THAT population that already had CTE, then tried to backtrack and identify when they started to play football (LOL - good luck with that), and their grand conclusion was that those who they think played before age 12 showed symptoms 2.5 years earlier than those who didn't. That has to be the dumbest article I've read on the topic yet. But sure - let's go with that, and ignore the hundreds of thousands if not millions of adults who played and got value from youth football with no issues. No agenda there at all...

Personal style of response aside (and mine was borderline, I own that), what I tried to point out was the absurdity of the sample they selected to try to draw conclusions from.  

What are some of the weaknesses of these studies?  Specifically?

Usually - they don't include ANY kind of control group.  The only people being studied so far tend to be those who are already afflicted.  They don't look at NFL player brains who didn't have issues.  They don't look at the instances of CTE in the general population.  There is literally no basis of comparison for the studies I've seen. There is simply so much missing that these studies are pure bullshit from a scientific point of view.  But what am I missing?  What other ammunition can we give to those of us who want to counter seemingly "scientific" studies?

Or is this a stupid topic?


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Bob Goodman
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It's not a stupid topic, but every circumstance is a little different, so it's hard to give advice on how to handle each situation.  Try and figure out who in the "audience" for such writings is amenable to being persuaded one way or the other, and then try to write for them alone.


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CoachDP
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Nothing was said about whether a concussion protocol was used for the child featured in the story.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Dusty Ol Fart
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Nothing better than a "One Size Fits All" strategy.  Makes it easy for everyone!    ? 

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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mahonz
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Posted by: @johnkoester

Or is this a stupid topic?

Not at all. Right now Im out recruiting and explaining. Its exhausting and rarely works. The biggest issue....getting their ear long enough to have an actual conversation when their minds are already made up. 

I miss those days when at least some of the parents would actually seek me out. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Coach Kyle
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Last time I looked into this it looked like there was more evidence than not that youth football had a positive correlation to this problem. The problem that I always had with this is that we're never given any sort of rate. They have scientific studies that say things like, "Children who play football for ten years are five times more likely to get CTE." Okay, but how likely are you to get it if you don't play? What does five times more likely mean? Did we go from a 20% chance to a 100% chance? Or did we go from a 0.1% chance to a 0.5% chance? 

Furthermore, we're listening and adapting the sport. We'll have to wait and see how this impacts those numbers. 

Ultimately I don't know where the moral line gets drawn. When is it unethical to coach/play football?

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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CoachDP
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The long and the short of it is that now there's a protocol.  The protocol is in place to allow the injury to heal before it gets injured again.  Before there were protocols, players were sent back into the fray as soon as they could walk.  That's much like cutting your skin and then continuing to pick at the wound before its healed.  By picking at the scab repeatedly, it will take much longer to heal and you'll eventually have a permanent scar.  As opposed to dressing and covering the cut, and letting it completely heal.  Then there is no scar.  I don't believe the concussion is the cause of CTE, as much as not allowing the injury to heal before getting to play again.

--Dave

 

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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SnapIt
(@trentsutton)
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This is a very pertinent topic  

I got into a huge pissing match on Facebook when the Concussion Legacy Foundation came out comparing playing youth football to kids smoking.  The study of CTE is still in its infancy and is severely limited by the fact that one must be dead to study a brain related to CTE.    The vast majority of the studies are based off of the brains of ex professional players.   I have yet to see a conclusive study simply isolated to individuals that played no further than high school.    I do not argue that there is a real risk of CTE for those playing professional football.    However it is not intellectually honest to use those studies to extrapolate that the same risks exist simply by playing  youth to high school football.  

I tell parents that the game has never been safer due to better equipment, safer tackling techniques (angle drills, reduce space, protect head, hawk tackling, etc), and concussion protocols.   While football does pose risks, there is risk every day in life.  In my opinion the benefits far outweigh those risks.  Unfortunately our game is under attack and we must all be active proponents and speak up when ignorant people start spewing out half truths an “studies” based on bad science.  I complement you for standing up for our game   

Here is an article that you may find useful in your conversations.     http://www.nfhs.org/articles/the-nfhs-voice-no-linkage-to-cte-from-playing-high-school-football?ArtId=349420

"Success is the peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable." - Coach John Wooden


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @trentsutton

I got into a huge pissing match on Facebook

Did you win?

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @coach-kyle

Ultimately I don't know where the moral line gets drawn. When is it unethical to coach/play football?

When it's so bad that if you come upon a group of kids playing football, you treat it like a group of kids playing with matches or passing around a needle or some such.  In other words, if it's something many kids do on their own anyway, when it reaches a stage where harm reduction methods (i.e. adult supervision) seem unethical compared to attempting to suppress the activity entirely.

Take for instance the piece comparing it to smoking.  If you came upon a group of kids smoking, can you think of anything you could do to make their smoking safer and still have it be smoking?  Probably not, since it's just a matter of the inhalation of smoke itself that's dangerous.  You could try to get them to switch to vaping, but that'd be like getting them to switch from football to rugby or soccer or lacrosse, etc.

This post was modified 2 years ago by Bob Goodman

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SnapIt
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Posted by: @coachdp
Posted by: @trentsutton

I got into a huge pissing match on Facebook

Did you win?

--Dave

Haha!  I don’t think I’ve ever convinced someone otherwise when debating on Facebook???.    It doesn’t keep me from trying to educate the ignorant though?

"Success is the peace of mind, which is a direct result of self-satisfaction in knowing you made the effort to become the best of which you are capable." - Coach John Wooden


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @trentsutton
It doesn’t keep me from trying to educate the ignorant though?

Yeah, I get it. ? 

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Coach Kyle
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@bob-goodman

I'm not sure if you're saying this, but I've heard the adult supervision thing before. People make the argument that kids are going to play football regardless, and having youth football programs are safer because they allows young men the opportunity to play football in a supervised environment.

While this argument probably satisfies someone who wants justify their youth football program, I think it dramatically overstates the facts of the matter. Perhaps in the 80's and 90's kids would certainly play football outside, and potential injury would be the result. However, twenty years later kids have lots more to distract them and take their attention. Parents are also more guarded of their children. Furthermore, when I see kids playing football on their own they typically only throw the ball around. Tackling isn't nearly as popular among kids as it is with coaches. If youth football completely died, and parents instructed kids to avoid playing football, I'd think you'd have relatively fewer injuries related to football.

That being said, kids in a football program receive a lot of personal development. The adult supervision and team environment certainly have many positive effects. It's certainly not all about avoiding injuries. Kids who play football are more likely to avoid drugs. It's more adults which the kid has the opportunity to learn from. They get to experience high pressure situations and working on a team to achieve victory, or at least try. They gain a respect for the sport, a feel for what it's like to play a contact sport, and they get to partake in an American tradition. It's a right of passage that is alluring to a lot of boys, girls even. If they only play for one year, they can be proud. 

 

Deaths while walking 4,743Deaths from football 12


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @coach-kyle

@bob-goodman

I'm not sure if you're saying this, but I've heard the adult supervision thing before. People make the argument that kids are going to play football regardless, and having youth football programs are safer because they allows young men the opportunity to play football in a supervised environment.

While this argument probably satisfies someone who wants justify their youth football program, I think it dramatically overstates the facts of the matter. Perhaps in the 80's and 90's kids would certainly play football outside, and potential injury would be the result. However, twenty years later kids have lots more to distract them and take their attention. Parents are also more guarded of their children. Furthermore, when I see kids playing football on their own they typically only throw the ball around. Tackling isn't nearly as popular among kids as it is with coaches. If youth football completely died, and parents instructed kids to avoid playing football, I'd think you'd have relatively fewer injuries related to football.

My observation is that tackling is as popular among unsupervised kids, but they just don't know how to do it.  They go in high, many of them with arm tackles, and wrestle.  With no referee to whistle the runner down, plays tend to end with something like a rugby maul that eventually collapses.  The kids may be wearing things, including pocket contents, they don't think of as dangerous but are.  I haven't seen a serious injury occur, but I shudder in retrospect as I think about the collapse of a "maul" wherein one kid has another in a half nelson when they go down as part of a pile.


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patriotsfatboy1
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A couple of things to consider:

- on Facebook, there are 2 groups that might help - "Save Youth Football - Massachusetts" and "California Youth Football Alliance".  Both groups are committed to defeating legislation that limits tackle football. Lots of real data and info comes from there because there are actual researchers and people committed to finding out the truth.

- Read a book by Merril Hoge (and Peter Cummings) called "Brainwashed: The Bad Science behind CTE and the Plot to Destroy Football" https://brainwashedbook.com/ .  The book has lots of information on why the "science" is slanted and how it is hurting the game by people who are looking to make money off of the resulting fear.


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