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Rjdafoe
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So I ran Brown and Black formation last year.  We flipped the line with strong side and quick side.

Has anyone ever flipped your line on the Toss Cut?  Putting your strong line on the wall side.

Is that too much of a give on what way you are going to go at the 9-10 level jr pee wee?

Just wondering people thought about it.  Thanks.


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jrk5150
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Yes.  I flip and run both power and counter to the strong side of the line.  I have done that since I started flipping 4 years ago.  I did it out of convenience based on a mid-year installation of the offense, and it worked so well I just kept doing it.  Came to find out that's how Jack flips his line as well.

I have yet to see a D noticeably adjust to our flip.  That leads me to believe it hasn't been picked up on, but I don't know that.  I just know there hasn't been a game yet where the D moved personnel or changed alignment to match up to our strong side, nor has a defensive coach on the other sideline called out anything that I could relate back to our strong side.  We break huddle and run the plays pretty quickly, so I think I'd see the D moving around to match up.


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Luc
 Luc
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Did it last year.

We had a wall side and a pull side. So on counters, we would flip the line.

Worked like a charm. We could never tell that the D figured it out.

Also, from the flipped line, we could wedge or pass, so it was not 100% match to the side we would run.

But we were pretty simple, and it did not cause us any problem.

Hey, even our parents didn't get it. They complained on other things, but not on flipping the line. 😉

To be good you have to work hard. To be better, you have to work harder. To be great, you have to keep working when the good ones stop.


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jrk5150
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I limit running wedge to when we're in strong right.  Not sure why.

I have a few plays that we run back to the pull/"quick" side - an ISO/Blast, quick trap, sweep, reverse and a screen pass.  The sweep, screen pass and reverse all use the exact same blocking, with the pulling G leading out from the play-side.

But I'll go one step further.  I have a second string O that I use to get our 8 or 12 (depending on our roster size) MPR's in, and I run wedge, blast and sweep exclusively with them.  We run EVERYTHING with that group to our strong side, so a D could put 8 or 9 guys to that side of our C and we'd be screwed.  But they don't, which again leads me to believe nobody has picked up on it, or at least figured out what to do about it.  I will grant that they might be giving me too much credit and assuming we have an answer...which we do for our starters, but not the back-ups.


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PSLCOACHROB
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As long as you still run some stuff to the weakside then you should be ok. I think we would pick it up through scouting because we write down numbers to figure out mpr players. I don't think we would adjust because we would imagine you would have an answer waiting to burn us. We don't have a side of the defense that is stronger than the other and I also feel kids get comfortable at one side of the ball. We generally don't flip defenders but will change fronts/coverage.


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Rjdafoe
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Excellent.  Sounds like what i expected.  I am in the phase right now of picking the plays for this year.

Right now, the line flips when they hear the word CUT.  That way on Toss Cut, the  line would flip, but not the backs.

There are few other things that I am thinking about as well:

Only running the Brown formation, but make sure I am picking plays that attack the entire field on both sides.  On non-quick plays, all of the plays would have Toss motion.

I am also adding a Direct Snap Gun formation based upong the DWS, and I am keeping the Beast formation that I used last year.  All plays would be able to be run out of all 3 formations, even if the names might not make sense - for instance, our base play would be just plain Toss.  This would be the standard tight formation.  Toss Gun would be our Gun formation - same play only from our Gun formation which is basically Gregory Shift formation.  HB gets the direct snap and runs Toss.  Line blocks as Toss.

Not exactly sure yet.  But this is what I am thinking about.


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CoachJJ
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Only running the Brown formation, but make sure I am picking plays that attack the entire field on both sides.  On non-quick plays, all of the plays would have Toss motion.

does this mean you would only run TOSS to one side ??

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


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Rjdafoe
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does this mean you would only run TOSS to one side ??

That is what I am playing with right now.  TOSS would be run to one side.  I am thinking about another play I would call Toss Cut Counter or something similar.  Toss would tell the HB to go to Toss motion, Cut tells the line to swap and how to block, Counter tells the QB to fake toss and hand off to WB.  FB runs as lead blocker for WB on a Toss Cut path.  I think this works out to be very similar to a Toss only to the other side of the line.  It will take a bit of timing to get it all to work.  It is a good thing I have 3 boys (and of course their friends) to try this out on before getting to practice.

So my Toss series would be:

Toss
Toss Cut
Toss Cut Counter
Toss Pass
Super Toss
Toss Reverse

Everything but Super Toss and Toss Reverse would be able to be run out of the Standard DW Tight formation, the Beast formation, and the Gun formation.  Tight formation would be the assumed formation unless we tag it with Beast or Gun.  The backs are the only ones that need to change any alignment or adjust routes at all.

Quick Series:

Quick Wedge
Quick Dive
Quick Sweep

All of the quick series would be in Tight formation only.

That is what I am playing with right now anyway.


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CoachJJ
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IMHO ... TOSS is too important to not run it both ways ... that is why we flip ... to get our BEST TOSS play to both sides of the field ...

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


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Rjdafoe
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IMHO ... TOSS is too important to not run it both ways ... that is why we flip ... to get our BEST TOSS play to both sides of the field ...

I hear you.  That is why it is just in the thinking phase right now.  I am trying to come up with something that would be like the Toss play to the other side.  Maybe it will just be a naming thing, but will just be the Toss to the other side.  Maybe the FB lines up offset to the other side and does his normal kick out block with the Line blocking as Toss to that side and the WB taking a handoff instead of a Toss.

I am trying to use a Gun formation and use the Beast formation a little more.  I am trying not add both of those to Brown and Black formations by keeping it simple.  I am not sure that I can do that or not.

I need to think about it a little more. Any ideas would be appreciated.

JJ do you run all the plays from both Brown and Black formations?


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coachmsl
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What are the brown and black formations?

I am interested in flipping the line.  What is the minimum # of plays necessary to be effective? 

If I had strong right, I see it as something like this:
Liz Power Rt
Rip Counter Rt
Rip Sweep Lt
Liz Sweep Rt
Rip, Liz or NoMo Wedge
NoMo Wedge Sweep Rt or Lt

Power pass
Boot pass

What is it that you all would do with a group of 3rd graders that flip the line?

Thanks

Matt

What makes the grass grow?...........BLOOD!


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coachmsl
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All right.  Im a Dumba$$.  I found Football Help Desk.  Downloaded the SDW playbook.  Geesh.  That was easy.  I will continue reading and THEN ask some questions. 

What makes the grass grow?...........BLOOD!


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mahonz
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All right.  Im a Dumba$$. 

Matt

See what happens when you sign up to be a DW Coach..... 😛

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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CoachJJ
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JJ do you run all the plays from both Brown and Black formations?

Absolutely ... but some games we dont need to run SWEEP both ways ... or we dont need to run TRAP both ways ... and we rarely run TOSS PASS or BOOT PASS both ways because our QB will be right handed or left handed and that is why one pass goes to our strong side and the other goes to the quick side ... so we can flip the formation and still throw to the kids strong arm ... for example a RH QB needs to throw:
BROWN TOSS PASS
BLACK QUICK BOOT PASS

Both times he is moving and throwing to the right ... but one play he is attacking the strong side ... the other play he is attacking the weak side ... both are play action and the BOOT is even a split flow series ... and we dont lose either play when the backup QB is left handed because we just call:
BLACK TOSS PASS
BROWN QUICK BOOT PASS

Viola (small stringed instrument) no muss no fuss SIMPLE passing game ...

I feel strongly that it is super easy to run plays both ways when you just teach everything from BROWN and then go back and flip to BLACK and have them run it again ... they freak out the first time and then they think about it and bam it happens ... seriously, the great thing is you are just asking a kid to do the same job in the other direction ... the QB has to work on his spin a little for TOSS but we usually do that when he is warming up pre practice taking snaps ... everyone else has easy footwork and they just go opposite ... I cant fathom a reason NOT to flip and run the whole playbook both ways ... it doubles the ways you can attack the defense without doubling the teaching time ...

As for running BEAST or GUN with the Simple Double Wing ... we have done that and it is really quite simple in my opinion ... use 2 more colors ...
GREY - Gun Right
GOLD - Gun Left

Teach the formation ... then call GREY TOSS ... the kids will all freak out for 30 seconds ... you ask them all one at a time what do they do on TOSS ... the jobs stay the same ... ask the QB last and tell him when you are in the GUN you wont lead block you will just catch the ball and hand it to the HB ... WHAM you now run TOSS from the GUN ...

Now lets hit the BEAST look ...
RED - Beast Right
BLUE - Beast Left

Teach the formation ... then call RED TOSS ... the kids again freak out ... you ask them one at a time what do they do on TOSS ... jobs stay the same until the QB ... he never touches the snap he just leads through the hole ... you ask the HB last ... his new job is catch the snap directly and run TOSS (QB can still call cadence) ... WHAM you now run TOSS from BEAST ...

Will they look amazing the first time ... no not really there are subtle timing differences that have to be worked out ... but reps will take care of that ...

Once you go through the standard playbook and install the plays you want from the new formations you can evaluate the situation and decide if you need 'other plays' or if your kids can even handle 'other plays' ... if so, you install whatever play it is you want to add to the new formations ... but the core is there to carry you from one look to the next ...

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


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CoachJJ
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What are the brown and black formations?

I am interested in flipping the line.  What is the minimum # of plays necessary to be effective? 

If I had strong right, I see it as something like this:
Liz Power Rt
Rip Counter Rt
Rip Sweep Lt
Liz Sweep Rt
Rip, Liz or NoMo Wedge
NoMo Wedge Sweep Rt or Lt

Power pass
Boot pass

What is it that you all would do with a group of 3rd graders that flip the line?

Thanks

Matt

We flip the entire offense (not just the line) so it takes away all those extra words in the play call ... we just call BROWN TOSS ... formation and play ... our kids learn in the first couple weeks that any TOSS PLAY is on GO ... some years with younger kids we will say BROWN TOSS on GO for a couple weeks until they get it right ...
Then our QUICK PLAYS are always on SET ...

We packaged all the plays up so we get 2 different snap counts without the hassle of calling it all the time ...

http://www.coachsomebody.com/simple-double-wing-2012-nike-coy-presentation/

Check out that link for my NIKE presentation ... at the end I broke down what plays I consider to be must haves at each age group as well as TAGs that I would install ... from there if they can handle more you give them more ... simple enough ...

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


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