Notifications
Clear all

New Stuff?

Page 1 / 2

jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

So I find myself in a new situation.  We're 5-0, headed for 7-0 (two BAD opponents coming up) and a week 8 play-in game to make the playoffs.  Which we should win.  Then followed by playoffs if we win.

Never made the play in game before, much less playoffs.  Scouting will now be an issue, never really was before.  I'm 100% sure that we will be scouted in person and/or via video by reasonably good coaching staffs.

X's and O's -

I flip my line, I do not flip my backs.  I offset my FB full time.  I only pull my G.  I don't motion my WB, I shift him to his pitch spot.  Jr. Pee Wee Pop Warner, 9-11 year old kids.

Here's what I have installed, and have run at least a couple of times in games with success - every play can be run right or left:

Out of DTDW:
Power to strong side
WB Counter (not XX) to strong side (FB flips to quick side)
Power Sweep to strong side
Power Pass to strong side
Wedge
Quick Lead to quick side B gap (FB primarily, can run WB or QB also) - think quick trap action by backfield but BOB blocked similar to Wyatt Base Lead.  We just put this in a week ago and ran Sunday for first time.

The first 5 plays are my "core", I run them more than any other plays.  Quick lead is still an experiment in that I don't know how it will go against better teams, but so far I like it.

Out of Wing-I formation:
Power/Counter/Power Sweep/Wedge/Power Pass
TB blast to strong or quick side (flip FB to run it to quick side)
Pitch sweep to quick side (FB flips to quick side, pull play side G)

Out of Loose/Over
Jet sweep to slot
Quick pass to slot
FB counter trap to short side away from jet motion

Out of Beast/Crunch (run this primarily with my back up O)
QB Blast/Lead
QB Sweep
Counter (Beast only)

The following has been installed and run in practice but NOT run in a game:

Gun formation - think Murphy's current formation, I have the QB back 3-4 yards, and have the backside WB backed up so he's toes to QB heels and behind the TE/T gap.  Can run all of the above DTDW plays from this, use a hand-off on power.  QB quick lead looks really good from this set.

Out of DTDW and Gun - swing pass to WB to quick side (in DTDW he runs it after he shifts, I pull play side G out in front).  I only run this to the left due to RH QB, easier throw.

I installed JJ's quick sweep out of DTDW, but wasn't able to make it work without a second blocker on the edge.  With just my G pulling, I can't get the OLB AND CB blocked.  In fact, that is what caused me to install Wing I and run pitch sweep, so I can get the FB out in front.  If we run into a 4-4, which we may in the playoffs, I might put this in as we can hold the ILB with the FB lead fake, block the DE with the TE, OLB with the WB and CB with the G. 

Personally, I think I have too many plays in already.  But I guess I'm asking - am I missing anything?  I added quick lead and pitch sweep a week ago specifically to account for teams reading my line flip.  I thought about a seam/dump pass to the TE, maybe even to the backside TE when we show power pass the other way, but looking at my game video it just doesn't seem to ever be open, so I'm not sure there's a point to it.

The one other play I am thinking seriously about installing is JJ's quick cross power.  I have played around with it in practice, but not seriously.  As of now, I have a mini-tell in that if I don't shift (in DTDW), I'm running wedge or quick lead.  I doubt that will be picked up on, but at least it gives me another option out of that set that uses both misdirection and power, and is a relatively easy install.

The one other play I've been kicking around in my head is something else away from the slot when I go Loose.  One team we played shifted (properly) to our Loose/Over formation, and shut down jet sweep as we had nobody to block their MLB lined up in our C gap with a good angle on the jet back.  I didn't even try the jet trap as I didn't need to, but I think it would have gone.  But that play relies on their OLB and/or DE not paying much attention - if they sit on it, it's not a big play.  So alternatively I have been considering running a power toss towards the short side to our offset FB, which brings the play-side WB, QB and SG (pulling) to the party.  But is it worth the teach?


Quote
Michael
(@michael)
Kryptonite
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 12890
 

You might want to change the forum name to just "Double Wing Offense."

🙂

Michael can not receive PM's, emails or respond to Posts. He passed away in September 2018. To honor his contributions we are leaving his account active. R.I.P - Dumcoach Staff.


ReplyQuote
Coach_O
(@rob_coach_o)
Gold
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 2233
 

Wing counter cut is good, but you might not need anything else. You got a lot of stuff.

Helmet Decals
http://Facebook.com/SportsLiveDecals


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

You might want to change the forum name to just "Double Wing Offense."

🙂

I was just typing about how I'm not following you, then I realized what you were saying.

Yeah, maybe should have put this in the Double Wing section, LOL. 

Well, I START with JJ's simple DW, then I make it complicated.  🙁

But in my defense, my "core" is all of 5 plays and one formation.  Doesn't get that much simpler.  I just type complicated...


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

Wing counter cut is good, but you might not need anything else. You got a lot of stuff.

Ah - counter cutback.  Forgot about that one, have used it before.  Great play.  Hmmmm.  That's not much of an add, since it only impacts the backs, and even then not much.  But yeah, what does it add that I don't have.

In one respect it feels like I have a lot.  But then again - it really comes down to about 9 or 10 plays run out of different formations.  So maybe not.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 23318
 

John

My suggestion is simple. Run nothing but Beast vs the two BAD opponents. Let others scout away.

We did this last season game 8 because our round one playoff opponent was present with 2 cameras.

That next week they defended the Beast very well so we destroyed them running our regular O.

Food for thought. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
Tripwire
(@tripwire)
Gold
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 1478
 

John

My suggestion is simple. Run nothing but Beast vs the two BAD opponents. Let others scout away.

We did this last season game 8 because our round one playoff opponent was present with 2 cameras.

That next week they defended the Beast very well so we destroyed them running our regular O.

Food for thought.

We did this last year knowing our opponent only scouted the game before them.  We ran a gap 8 the entire game vs a really bad opponent, then showed up with a 3-3.  Same on offense.  We ran a spread jet offense and threw outside like crazy the entire game, then lined up in our normal dtdw and wedged/off tackled them.

I knew we had them when at the weigh ins the other coach said, "So what is that a 10-1 you guys run?"

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.


ReplyQuote
mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 23318
 

We did this last year knowing our opponent only scouted the game before them.  We ran a gap 8 the entire game vs a really bad opponent, then showed up with a 3-3.  Same on offense.  We ran a spread jet offense and threw outside like crazy the entire game, then lined up in our normal dtdw and wedged/off tackled them.

I knew we had them when at the weigh ins the other coach said, "So what is that a 10-1 you guys run?"

T

Its a good ploy.

What sucks about John's situation is he is playing two BAD opponents going into the big show. That means John's team will be at a disadvantage vs teams that were tested going in.

So run something Neanderthal to the point the kids have to really work hard to keep it going. 40 Beast Blast plays with 6 different runners should do the trick.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


ReplyQuote
CoachJJ
(@coachjj)
Gold
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2036
 

Quick XX is our best 'big play' ... but it is based on Quick Sweep (which you don't really use) ... but when we run it ... mmm hmm it goes good ...

I say otherwise you have plenty of stuff installed ... I would like to see a Sweep and Reverse to the Quick Side ... but that is just me ... I don't flip my line independent of the backs ...

If you add anything else it should be a 'key breaker' ... something where you pull one way and run the other ... or lead the FB one way and run the other ...

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

John

My suggestion is simple. Run nothing but Beast vs the two BAD opponents. Let others scout away.

We did this last season game 8 because our round one playoff opponent was present with 2 cameras.

That next week they defended the Beast very well so we destroyed them running our regular O.

Food for thought. 

Tried that last year.  Didn't help, LOL.

You can also go the other way - the more I show them, the more they have to prepare for, and the less prepared they will be for our core. 

And frankly, I need BEAST.  Hell, I might hold back and not show BEAST anymore and hope they DON'T prepare for it.

Besides, I don't know what game they may get video from.  I know my game 8 opponent has video from our 4th game, since it was against their sister team.  And that was the toughest game we've played, we definitely showed a good chunk of our playbook in the first half of that game.  We didn't have our quick side plays in then, however.  And didn't show jet trap.

Bottom line is that we have to win game 8 to get to the playoffs, and by then it's likely that the team waiting for us will know and be there.  But it's not like I can hold much back, we have to win that game.

The next two weeks I'll spend fine tuning a few things.  I may only run some plays once just to see the timing, etc.  But it's not like they're trick plays or anything that we're giving away by running.  Any team watching us isn't going to be able to get a good read on the plays we think are important vs. plays I'm just goofing around with.  The only play I'll for sure hold back is jet trap, but that's more about our game 8 opponent - I don't think they've seen it, but they did see their sister team stop our jet sweep by shifting.  Again, might hold BEAST back, we'll see.  I can get my C reps on the snap running our GUN formation.  I really don't plan to use GUN as some secret weapon, that's something I'd just be goofing around with.  But it might force a team to spend time preparing for it, and for our line it's reps in our base plays, so worth doing.

If I decide to put in another play to the short side of our loose over formation, I'll probably hide that too, at least until/unless I need it.


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

Quick XX is our best 'big play' ... but it is based on Quick Sweep (which you don't really use) ... but when we run it ... mmm hmm it goes good ...

No, but I did just install quick lead to the FB (VERY similar to your quick trap) and to the WB (which is him taking a quick sweep handoff and cutting up into the B/C gap behind the FB).  So it IS flow going to the quick side that we'd run this against.

Also, WB sweep is a really common play around here, most teams have seen it a lot.  Even if I don't run it, my guess is that teams will see that first hand-off and react to it.

I say otherwise you have plenty of stuff installed ... I would like to see a Sweep and Reverse to the Quick Side ... but that is just me ... I don't flip my line independent of the backs ... 

I have a pitch sweep to the quick side out of Wing I leading FB and QG out wide with the WB pinning the DE.  It actually sets up WB counter really well back to the strong side.

I have never had any luck with reverse, to the point that I just stopped running it.  Seems like the only teams it beat were bad teams, when we didn't need it.  The good teams, their DE and CB stay home.  It's actually one of the reasons I think counter works so well for us.  Hardly anyone around here goes off tackle (the way we do) with their "reverse" play, the DE and CB are just sitting there watching it cut up inside of them...

If you add anything else it should be a 'key breaker' ... something where you pull one way and run the other ... or lead the FB one way and run the other ...

That I don't have.  You can follow my FB to the play most of the time...if you can see him.  He's one of our O/L's, pretty small kid.  Hard to see with tight splits and bodies everywhere.  🙂

I don't even know where I'd start on that.  We can run our O with no pull, so I'm less worried about having to false pull, but our FB...that's another story.  I could probably screw around with our GUN formation and do some stuff without the FB involved...


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

JJ - to address your question from the other thread about just pulling the T on quick sweep -

I've considered that.  Right now, I'm really fighting myself about adding too much, hence this entire thread.  I'm honestly not sure where to draw the line.  But I'll tell you what, I think I'm about at that line - my QG last night pulled on quick lead, which he isn't supposed to do.  We've run this play dozens of times now between practice last week (where I installed it), the game Sunday, and practice this week, and he's done it right each time.  Yet last night he was completely BAFFLED when I told him not to pull.  I mean blank look confused.  That tells me he's about to his limit on new stuff.

Now, my QG DOES have a lot to know, and this kid has been doing some minor work at WB as well, which I now see was a mistake as it overloaded him.  But I'm taking to heart that my kids may not be able to absorb much in the way of "new", and pulling that T would absolutely be "new".  Plus I still have some personnel issues with it.

Of course, all that said, I couldn't resist screwing around last night.  We were doing a bit of live 11 on 11 with the starters, and I decided to screw with them to see how they handled it.  So I called the quick cross power with very minimal instruction.  Actually worked pretty well.  Timing of the backs needs work, but it worked well.

I also invented a play call out of my loose over formation - Rover (which is the loose over right) 25 power lead (2 is my FB).  Basically, it's a toss play to the FB to the short side of the formation (he's normally back a couple of steps from his sniffer position in Rover anyway, he just backs up another step for this).  Lead tells the G and T on the short side (my QTE and QT) to lead block, which means they block the first and second DL to their side, and my SG to pull around and up into the hole.  WB goes to LB, QB tosses, spins and kicks first to show (DE).

If a D shifts with that loose over formation, this play could be MONEY.  My QG is out at SE, so no risk of him being more confused.  My backs picked it up immediately, and the line mirrors quick lead blocking.  THAT'S a new play I'm willing to think about, since every piece of it is something we already do.  But still not sure about it.


ReplyQuote
CoachJJ
(@coachjj)
Gold
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2036
 

Yeah I wasn't trying to get you to add anything now ...
I was actually thinking at the start of the season when you decide you cant run QSweep because you need 2 pullers and your offense has made a hard decision to only pull 1 kid no matter the play ... 😎

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


ReplyQuote
jrk5150
(@jrk5150)
Diamond
Joined: 13 years ago
Posts: 6431
Topic starter  

Yeah I wasn't trying to get you to add anything now ...
I was actually thinking at the start of the season when you decide you cant run QSweep because you need 2 pullers and your offense has made a hard decision to only pull 1 kid no matter the play ... 😎

Personnel.

My second worst player is at QTE.  I don't trust him to down block to cover for both guys pulling.  On quick lead, he fans the DE and we're running B gap, so really it's a non-issue.  On jet trap he's going to the OLB, but we're counting on it hitting fast enough to get by that kid so I only need him to be "screened".  He can do that.  On the FB power back to the short side, I'd probably replace him, to be honest.

And my QT isn't that great either.  He's gotten better, to the point I would actually try to pull him...if the QTE wasn't still a stiff, and if I felt like I needed that play.  I'm okay with the wing I pitch sweep, honestly.  I think it actually gets out there faster, and the D can't really sit on the backfield look - I can run power out of it as well.  Of course, they could read the strong side AND the backfield alignment in combination and realize we can only run pitch sweep one way or counter the other, but I'm just not going to worry about that.


ReplyQuote
CoachJJ
(@coachjj)
Gold
Joined: 12 years ago
Posts: 2036
 

If the QTE can fan a DE, he can easily cut a DT ... Center is stepping his way as well ... AND we almost don't have to block anyone in the A-gap area anyway ... just cut the B gap and go ...

But again, I am not trying to convince you TO RUN IT ... I am just saying you COULD RUN IT ...

Coach JJ
www.CoachSomebody.com

"Football may be the best-taught subject in American High Schools because it may be the only subject that we haven't tried to make easy."

~Dorothy Farnan
  Former English Department Chairman
  Erasmus Hall High School - Brooklyn, New York


ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2
Share: