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Backside Guard pull on Power

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knightsof3
(@knightsof3)
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Anybody pull their backside guard on power with GOD blocking?

We've had penetration problems in the past pulling the frontside guard and it just seems from a schematic standpoint having the entire frontside blocking GOD would help prevent that frontside "A" gap problem.

Our backs are at about 3.5 yards and hit the hole pretty fast. Will the backside guard slow down the 1B on power?

We run both traditional single wing unbalanced formation and Dave's spread with the strong end split wide. Can a 12 year old pulling guard make that wrap and seal block thru the hole? Especially in unbalanced when it's a long pull from the backside.

Both our starting and backup pulling guards are big guys but can move fairly well. But this was based on them pulling from the frontside.


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StormCoach
(@stormcoach)
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There are a few coaches that pull backside and are successful on here.  I will be doing it,but I have to run a balanced line for my league rules.  Can you put  a back up running back there to gain a little more speed there so you don't have to worry about him being slow?

“I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious." ”
― Vince Lombardi


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PSLCOACHROB
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The single wing of yesteryear generally pulled the backside guard. Get a little more depth on the backs to gain a milli second and gain a little clearance and it should work. But don't blame Dave or his offense if it doesn't work. It sounds like your center needs to either step up and do his job, he needs to be coached up some more or he needs to be replaced. Maybe a little or a bunch of all of them. With zero splits penetration should not be a problem.


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mozzini
(@mozzini)
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Instead of GOD for your frontside tackle.. teach him SAB and crab.. and  like PSLsaid get your center stepped up. If you then have problems on your backside A-Gap SAB block with your guard and tackle with crab.. I would rather have BS penetration than frontside

Phillipians 4:13


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blockandtackle
(@coacharnold)
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Anybody pull their backside guard on power with GOD blocking?

We've had penetration problems in the past pulling the frontside guard and it just seems from a schematic standpoint having the entire frontside blocking GOD would help prevent that frontside "A" gap problem.

Our backs are at about 3.5 yards and hit the hole pretty fast. Will the backside guard slow down the 1B on power?

We run both traditional single wing unbalanced formation and Dave's spread with the strong end split wide. Can a 12 year old pulling guard make that wrap and seal block thru the hole? Especially in unbalanced when it's a long pull from the backside.

Both our starting and backup pulling guards are big guys but can move fairly well. But this was based on them pulling from the frontside.

We're not SW, but we run a Shotgun Wing-T thing.  We had a double tight Tackle Over package with a sniffer last year that was basically a SW set.

Power was very good to us out of this and was the safest thing we could call.  Since it was just a package, we kept our blocking rules intact on all of the stuff we did--Power, Counter, Buck Sweep, Iso, and Zone stayed exactly the same, except for adding the sniffer FB and giving him an assignment.    The sniffer would kick out while everyone else would track block, which was basically the same thing as GOD.

It got to where I was calling Power about 50% of the time in HS games because it was just the safest thing we could possibly run due to the wall of downblocks accounting for every single gap on the playside.

If you want to pull a playside OL, my advise is to have an easy call that your PSG or PSQT (the inside one) can make so that one downblocks the DT in A or B gap while the other pulls and kicks--just have the man with a bubble inside of him be the puller.  This is basically what we did on our Buck Sweep in this set and it works well.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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Anybody pull their backside guard on power with GOD blocking?

We've had penetration problems in the past pulling the frontside guard and it just seems from a schematic standpoint having the entire frontside blocking GOD would help prevent that frontside "A" gap problem.

Our backs are at about 3.5 yards and hit the hole pretty fast. Will the backside guard slow down the 1B on power?

We run both traditional single wing unbalanced formation and Dave's spread with the strong end split wide. Can a 12 year old pulling guard make that wrap and seal block thru the hole? Especially in unbalanced when it's a long pull from the backside.

Both our starting and backup pulling guards are big guys but can move fairly well. But this was based on them pulling from the frontside.

I believe if you address the Center issue in your other Thread then this idea will become moot. Its a thigh bone connected to the knee bone kinda thing.

The issues with pulling backside is a really good DE can compress the backfield and create a log jamb forcing you to call perimeter plays....which may or may not be a bad thing. Depends on your speed now. 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Bob Goodman
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Our backs are at about 3.5 yards and hit the hole pretty fast. Will the backside guard slow down the 1B on power?

Yes.  If the tailback runs straight at the hole from that depth with 12 YOs, he's probably going to have to wait a bit.  (It's also noticeable on trap plays, as I discovered in 2015.)

If the tailback instead uses an in-and-out run technique or threatens to go wide first and then cuts to the hole, that takes up the time needed for the back side puller to get there.


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Bob Goodman
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Its a thigh bone connected to the knee bone kinda thing.

Exactly.  Dave Cisar's system has its elements all tuned together.  If you change one thing, then you're going to have to change something else to fit.  He realized that covering for the puller is a difficult point, so he had to convince coaches to put in the time to practice that hard part; it comes up a lot!

As to shotgun wing T, its power takes longer to get the runner there than from single wing, so the timing problem doesn't arise.  The "classic" single wing, except in a no-pull situation, also took longer to get the tailback there.


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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Anybody pull their backside guard on power with GOD blocking?

Our backs are at about 3.5 yards and hit the hole pretty fast. Will the backside guard slow down the 1B on power?

I have tried pulling each one, front and back side guards.  You have to move the 1B deeper to get the proper timing with the puller. 

You are already at 3.5 yards and that is deeper than Dave Cisar recommends.  You shouldn't have to go much deeper to allow time for the BSG to get there.

Of course the deeper you go, the more accurate the snapper must be.  A deeper 1B also allows more time and a better angle for the backside DE to catch you in the backfield.  Pulling BSG will not help your sweep.

I would consider what defenses are giving you trouble with penetration.  If it is a wide 6 with 2 DTS in your A gaps, a B gap blast play should work.  If it is mostly middle LB blitzs, wedge the crap out of them.

I spent a lot of time trying to fix power problems when I should have just ran the complementary plays.  If the other team is overloading the line or blitzing all the time to stop your power play, another play will be open.  Blitzing LBs, run X Pop pass.  8 defenders inside, run sweep. 

Just my 2 cents.  I won a lot of games running Dave's offense and found the answer to almost every problem is in his book. 


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PSLCOACHROB
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I believe if you address the Center issue in your other Thread then this idea will become moot. Its a thigh bone connected to the knee bone kinda thing.

I firmly believe this is the issue. I don't mess around with centers. Do the job or you are replaced. It is too important of a position to have a decent athlete who is a tough kid.


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mozzini
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Another thing would be to work on your backs getting out of there faster.. ie look at false steps, use rabbit chase drill... I didn't have the best line in the world, and we would get penetration.. but most times my backs were quick enough to get out of that backfield and upfield (probably because they knew their line wasnt spectacular)

Phillipians 4:13


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pittpete
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I firmly believe this is the issue. I don't mess around with centers. Do the job or you are replaced. It is too important of a position to have a decent athlete who is a tough kid.

Lot easier said then done..LOL
Last year had to coach up a new center because the previous years center played up...
3 weeks into practice, new center says i don't want to play center any more....
Hey coach, why does our center snap with his head down, isnt that dangerous? ??? ??? ???
Like i said, lot easier said then done..LOL


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PSLCOACHROB
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Lot easier said then done..LOL
Last year had to coach up a new center because the previous years center played up...
3 weeks into practice, new center says i don't want to play center any more....
Hey coach, why does our center snap with his head down, isnt that dangerous? ??? ??? ???
Like i said, lot easier said then done..LOL

You let all your kids decide where they play? Coaching is not easy. Playing center is not easy. Coaching the center position is hard. A backup should be trained along side the starter. If the starter wants to not play then go sit on the bench. 2nd string man steps up. That benching will get the starters head straight. That part is easy. Kids play where it best helps the team or they sit on our teams. The other stuff is just a matter of reps and if you wait until something bad happens to coach up a replacement their performance will always be initially bad. Not having a back up center is just as bad as not having a back up qb.


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pittpete
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No, but if a kid tells me he doesnt want to play center in the 6th grade, do you force him?
Some of these kids cry if you look at them the wrong way.


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pittpete
(@pittpete)
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Yes my backup became the starter but was unfortunately a first year player..Then my backup was lost for the year 3 games in.
Was a FN nightmare.


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