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CoachDP
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co My guy's comment, "They run that double wing crap and just wedge all day. No one can stop it. That's not 'real' football."

And Einstein wasn't teaching "real" mathematics. "E = MC2?  What the heck is that?"

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @coyote

Re: the wedge

FWIW, we faced one team a couple yrs back that wedged a lot.  Their mistake was not staying with it.  Ate up a ton of clock, moved the chains, but they'd only run it a 3 -4 times in one drive, not all in the next couple, and then get back to it again later.   I'm seriously thinking of running wedge instead of trap with our Bucksweep backfield action.  

 

Do many of your opponents play DL who are even trappable, or worthwhile trapping?  If I get the chance I'm hoping for to install my own flavor of wing T, I want to make sure it has both a trap and a quick hitting dive by the FB.

Pretty needless to say, if I were installing my actual preferred offense, sidesaddle T, it'd include wedge.  But with the line splits people here expect, wedge wouldn't be worthwhile.  When the OL has to go sideways to mate a farther distance than the DL has to come to hit the gaps, that's a losing proposition.

So instead, I'd like to use progressive splits, a forward-placed and slightly offset FB, and some snapping thru the QB's legs.


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 Troy
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@bob-goodman Love to see video of it when you get it going.

The longer I coach, the lesser I know.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

Do many of your opponents play DL who are even trappable, or worthwhile trapping?  If I get the chance I'm hoping for to install my own flavor of wing T, I want to make sure it has both a trap and a quick hitting dive by the FB.

Pretty needless to say, if I were installing my actual preferred offense, sidesaddle T, it'd include wedge.  But with the line splits people here expect, wedge wouldn't be worthwhile.  When the OL has to go sideways to mate a farther distance than the DL has to come to hit the gaps, that's a losing proposition.

So instead, I'd like to use progressive splits, a forward-placed and slightly offset FB, and some snapping thru the QB's legs.

You bring up a great point, Bob. In a lot of my scout film, the real stud DLs tend to strafe to go where they think the ball is going.

For me, installing a trap is an ego thing. It makes me feel like a "real" coach, but I've gotten hundreds, if not thousands more yards with wedge than I have trap over the years. Having said that, I will install trap next fall. 

FWIW, I had a big argument with Cisar about running wedge with mega splits. For the record, I still think it will work. I had my line ready to go, but my OC didn't want to take time to install a backfield action. (don't ask). I actually think it would work better than tight splits if used occasionally because DP aside, every defense I've faced with Mega splits moves out with us, so they give us a natural bubble in the middle and we have the element of surprise. If we go to that well too often, they could probably exploit the gaps if they expect wedge.

Point is, I don't think you should assume that you can't wedge with larger splits.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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CoachDP
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

Do many of your opponents play DL who are even trappable, or worthwhile trapping?

If you're opponent has a good D-Lineman, you'd better have Trap.  Doesn't really matter if lesser teams don't have a trappable player, you'll need this play against good competition.   Actually everyone has a trappable player; you just have to be versatile in how you teach Trap.  In other words, if your opponent has a good defender, you can teach your guy to pull flat and kick.  If your opponent has a "sitter," teach your guy to angle pull at 2 or 10 o'clock.  We aren't going to call Trap until we've seen how the defender is playing us, so that we can give our Trapper a heads-up: "Flat pull" or "angle pull."

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Troy
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@gumby_in_co I would think you could run wedge with wide splits with more success if the DL was even front and not aligned in gaps. Another solution might be a sniffer in each gap adjacent to the apex, but you would need companion plays or that would be an obvious tell. Never tried anything like that. Just a thought.

The longer I coach, the lesser I know.


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

Do many of your opponents play DL who are even trappable, or worthwhile trapping?  If I get the chance I'm hoping for to install my own flavor of wing T, I want to make sure it has both a trap and a quick hitting dive by the FB.

Pretty needless to say, if I were installing my actual preferred offense, sidesaddle T, it'd include wedge.  But with the line splits people here expect, wedge wouldn't be worthwhile.  When the OL has to go sideways to mate a farther distance than the DL has to come to hit the gaps, that's a losing proposition.

So instead, I'd like to use progressive splits, a forward-placed and slightly offset FB, and some snapping thru the QB's legs.

You bring up a great point, Bob. In a lot of my scout film, the real stud DLs tend to strafe to go where they think the ball is going.

For me, installing a trap is an ego thing. It makes me feel like a "real" coach, but I've gotten hundreds, if not thousands more yards with wedge than I have trap over the years. Having said that, I will install trap next fall. 

FWIW, I had a big argument with Cisar about running wedge with mega splits. For the record, I still think it will work. I had my line ready to go, but my OC didn't want to take time to install a backfield action. (don't ask). I actually think it would work better than tight splits if used occasionally because DP aside, every defense I've faced with Mega splits moves out with us, so they give us a natural bubble in the middle and we have the element of surprise. If we go to that well too often, they could probably exploit the gaps if they expect wedge.

Point is, I don't think you should assume that you can't wedge with larger splits.

But aren't they trying to hit the gaps whether they expect wedge or not?

If they give you a bubble, aren't there better ways to exploit that than wedge?  I see a wedge as your own line closing off the bubble.  Wedge is what you want to run when there is no bubble.  If provides force at one point to make a bubble where none existed.  I'm sure Cisar would tell us the same.


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Troy
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@bob-goodman We run wedge as a sort of trap. We're small up front and teams try to blast through our gaps by just overpowering our 100lb OLs. When we wedge, we put all the force on one defender and the other DLs slide off the sides and end up behind our ball carrier. Their remediation is usually to submarine. When they do that, their penetration ends and our size problem is more or less solved. 

It didn't dawn on me that other team's submarining is actually to our benefit until last year. I kept trying to wedge over the submariners to no avail. No need. The wedge had already accomplished a critical function.

The longer I coach, the lesser I know.


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Bob Goodman
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Posted by: @troy

@bob-goodman We run wedge as a sort of trap. We're small up front and teams try to blast through our gaps by just overpowering our 100lb OLs. When we wedge, we put all the force on one defender and the other DLs slide off the sides and end up behind our ball carrier. Their remediation is usually to submarine. When they do that, their penetration ends and our size problem is more or less solved. 

It didn't dawn on me that other team's submarining is actually to our benefit until last year. I kept trying to wedge over the submariners to no avail. No need. The wedge had already accomplished a critical function.

Exactly.  It's like everything else in the offense's repertoire.  The object is not to make any one play work, but the offense as a whole.


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gumby_in_co
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Posted by: @bob-goodman

But aren't they trying to hit the gaps whether they expect wedge or not?

If they give you a bubble, aren't there better ways to exploit that than wedge?  I see a wedge as your own line closing off the bubble.  Wedge is what you want to run when there is no bubble.  If provides force at one point to make a bubble where none existed.  I'm sure Cisar would tell us the same.

I can't disagree with any of this. It was several years ago, so my memory of it isn't that great. But it's entirely possible I was trying to install wedge from Mega just to prove a point. 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Troy
 Troy
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@gumby_in_co Forgive me if I wander off topic, but your comment reminded me of a great speech Bill McCartney made. He was talking about coaching and changing systems in circa 1993. He said something along the lines of, "Above all else, coaches must be salesmen. It's the most important aspect of being head coach. The coach has to SELL the players and assistants on his system, and not just make them believe in it, but make them believe it is the ONLY system that will get them to their goal. The ONLY one!" If you want to run wedge with mega splits, I think you first would have to BELIEVE, WITHOUT A DOUBT, that it will work. Run whatever you want, but you have to be convinced, BEYOND ANY DOUBT, that you can make it work before you can sell it to your kids and assistants. As you and I know, they can keenly sniff out coaching neurosis. Once you are outted, it is so hard to get them back.

We always talk about you feeling some pressure to run this or that. I say bullocks to that. You have to run what you believe in. If you don't start there, you are already behind the eight ball.

Preaching to the choir here, but I think coaches at all levels, even pros, get too enamored with the Xs and Os. 

The longer I coach, the lesser I know.


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gumby_in_co
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@troy Agree, but that was the beauty of Spring football. It was our mad scientist lab where just about anything goes. You had to give it a lot of thought and you had to have an answer for all the "what if's", but we were free to try new stuff. Heck, we even stole your side saddle one season. I had to make my sales pitch to Mahonz and once accepted, we sold it to the players as "You guys are so smart and football savvy, that we can try stuff like this. We normally wouldn't be able to do this, but you make it possible." Never had a problem with buy in and we tried some really weird stuff.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Troy
 Troy
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Here's that speech where McCartney reads Wilkinson's coaching. It really resonated with me. 

The longer I coach, the lesser I know.


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