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gumby_in_co
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January 15, 2020 12:38 am  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

I'd be very interested in learning how to coach that.  It took long enough to practice wedging on one apex, I'd like to learn what shortcuts are possible to get teams to generalize it.

Sent him an email asking him to write something up. 

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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Bob Goodman
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January 15, 2020 10:50 am  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co
Posted by: @bob-goodman

I'd be very interested in learning how to coach that.  It took long enough to practice wedging on one apex, I'd like to learn what shortcuts are possible to get teams to generalize it.

Sent him an email asking him to write something up. 

He did, just slightly upthread.  It amounts to: Do it all over, and it just comes naturally for a different apex.  My intuition says it should come somewhat easier because most of the fits are the same.  He says his experience shows it goes much faster -- faster enough that he'll install it unless they were having trouble with wedge to begin with.

One thing I think would make it easier would be moving the assignment of snapper around the line, keeping the players in the same positions.  So, having the center snap when you're balanced, having a guard snap when you're 2-4 or 4-2, etc.  That way even more of the fits would be the same.  I don't know whether what you'd gain in ease of wedging with different apices would be worth whatever you'd lose by needing to coach up more starting line players to snap the ball.


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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January 15, 2020 12:01 pm  

@bob-goodman

No Bob. I did not say most of that crap you are attributing to me.

I did not say anything just comes naturally. I said it should go much quicker. That's a statement based on common sense not proof based on experience.

"He'll install it unless they are having trouble with wedge to begin with"? No I will install it if I have the players to make it work. IF I DO NOT HAVE A STRONG CENTER PLUS TWO STRONG GUARDS, I DO NOT BOTHER INSTALLING BALANCED FORMATIONS and usually don't flip the line. How much I install is completely based on my personnel. More strong smart linemen equals more installation. More runts/misfits/dumb linemen equals less install.

I have enough trouble finding one or two snappers I trust. There have been many over the last dozen years or so, but changing snappers based on where you want to wedge, might be the worst ideal I have ever read from you, Bob.

This post was modified 5 months ago 2 times by 32wedge

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MHcoach
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January 15, 2020 12:16 pm  

@32wedge

While I agree it's a pretty bad idea to have 2 snappers, I clearly disagree it's Bob's worst. He has had some real bad ones in the past.

 

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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January 15, 2020 2:58 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman

He did, just slightly upthread.  It amounts to: Do it all over, and it just comes naturally for a different apex.  My intuition says it should come somewhat easier because most of the fits are the same.  He says his experience shows it goes much faster -- faster enough that he'll install it unless they were having trouble with wedge to begin with.

One thing I think would make it easier would be moving the assignment of snapper around the line, keeping the players in the same positions.  So, having the center snap when you're balanced, having a guard snap when you're 2-4 or 4-2, etc.  That way even more of the fits would be the same.  I don't know whether what you'd gain in ease of wedging with different apices would be worth whatever you'd lose by needing to coach up more starting line players to snap the ball.

Sorry. I thought you meant our coach. We'll see if he writes anything up. For what it's worth, we had a lot of attendance issues last season. This meant that if I was going to have a wedge, I had better have players get used to moving around, so that's what I did. Like Nathan, I asked for 5 minutes per day (sometimes, I used as little as 60 seconds) to work on wedge. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but it was one of our better plays. It was inconsistent, though and for some teams, easy to stop. Mahonz was against it from day 1, but he indulged me. I never asked him what he thought of it because I didn't want to hear the truth. 

Next season, I'm going in a different direction with the offense and I haven't decided if wedge will be a part of it, or if it is, how close it will be to a "real" wedge. 

If you have enough good snappers to move that role around, you are in a wonderful place. Mahonz and I would sell the farm for one good snapper. We actually stopped running Beast for 6 weeks because we didn't have a snapper. I've never seen anything like it. It's surreal.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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mahonz
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January 15, 2020 4:20 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

Sorry. I thought you meant our coach. We'll see if he writes anything up. For what it's worth, we had a lot of attendance issues last season. This meant that if I was going to have a wedge, I had better have players get used to moving around, so that's what I did. Like Nathan, I asked for 5 minutes per day (sometimes, I used as little as 60 seconds) to work on wedge. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but it was one of our better plays. It was inconsistent, though and for some teams, easy to stop. Mahonz was against it from day 1, but he indulged me. I never asked him what he thought of it because I didn't want to hear the truth. 

Next season, I'm going in a different direction with the offense and I haven't decided if wedge will be a part of it, or if it is, how close it will be to a "real" wedge. 

If you have enough good snappers to move that role around, you are in a wonderful place. Mahonz and I would sell the farm for one good snapper. We actually stopped running Beast for 6 weeks because we didn't have a snapper. I've never seen anything like it. It's surreal.

I thought the wedge worked well. The reason I was against it is I wanted bigger splits but you and Marocs wanted a true wedge. I was happy  the wedge gave Mehi confidence. 

 

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Bob Goodman
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January 15, 2020 4:27 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge

@bob-goodman

No Bob. I did not say most of that crap you are attributing to me.

I did not say anything just comes naturally. I said it should go much quicker. That's a statement based on common sense not proof based on experience.

"He'll install it unless they are having trouble with wedge to begin with"? No I will install it if I have the players to make it work. IF I DO NOT HAVE A STRONG CENTER PLUS TWO STRONG GUARDS, I DO NOT BOTHER INSTALLING BALANCED FORMATIONS and usually don't flip the line. How much I install is completely based on my personnel. More strong smart linemen equals more installation. More runts/misfits/dumb linemen equals less install.

So wait, you're saying that "if you have the players to make it work", you'll install it even if the players who should be able to make it work are having trouble with it?  Upthread when you qualified it by saying if you have the "talent" you'll install it.  I took "talent" to mean they were making it look easy, that they were "getting it".  Now you're saying that if you have 3 starkers with brains at those positions, you'll spend as long as you need to install wedges at all 3 apexes?


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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January 15, 2020 4:29 pm  

@gumby_in_co

I don't spend more time on wedge because we don't have time to spare. We (myself and my 1 part time assistant) had 17 players last season. We have to teach those same guys how to tackle and play defense. Wedge or no wedge is not a major priority for me.

Last year, we had a good group of linemen and not many skill guys. We ran wedge close to half the time and had no passing game (4 completions for the season). 2 years ago, we had a very young O-line and some athletic skill guys and threw more passes and TDs than my other 16 years combined. 3 years ago we ran Power 81% of time behind my 300 pound tackle that Virginia Tech was asking about in the 8th grade.

I use to have a big ego and wanted to show off my great coaching. Being humbled many times over the years, and coming to realize that there are things more important than the score has changed me. Now I don't have a lot of pride when installing and calling plays. I go with what my kids can execute consistently. Almost ever year I spend the off seasons planning and scheming offenses and defenses and then almost ever year I throw out my plans when I see what my players abilities are. I want to give them the best chance to win. But more important than that, I want to see them fight every team on the schedule for four whole quarters with grit and determination.


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32wedge
(@32wedge)
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January 15, 2020 4:35 pm  
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @32wedge

@bob-goodman

No Bob. I did not say most of that crap you are attributing to me.

I did not say anything just comes naturally. I said it should go much quicker. That's a statement based on common sense not proof based on experience.

"He'll install it unless they are having trouble with wedge to begin with"? No I will install it if I have the players to make it work. IF I DO NOT HAVE A STRONG CENTER PLUS TWO STRONG GUARDS, I DO NOT BOTHER INSTALLING BALANCED FORMATIONS and usually don't flip the line. How much I install is completely based on my personnel. More strong smart linemen equals more installation. More runts/misfits/dumb linemen equals less install.

So wait, you're saying that "if you have the players to make it work", you'll install it even if the players who should be able to make it work are having trouble with it?  Upthread when you qualified it by saying if you have the "talent" you'll install it.  I took "talent" to mean they were making it look easy, that they were "getting it".  Now you're saying that if you have 3 starkers with brains at those positions, you'll spend as long as you need to install wedges at all 3 apexes?

No, Bob.

I am saying if I do not have the 3 strong players, I do not even attempt to install that.

I spend 5 minutes per practice on wedge, tops. Some years, we stay in one unbalanced line formation and wedge at 1 apex the whole season.

I never said anything about having trouble with it.

This post was modified 5 months ago by 32wedge

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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Joined: 9 years ago
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January 15, 2020 4:38 pm  
Posted by: @gumby_in_co

If you have enough good snappers to move that role around, you are in a wonderful place. Mahonz and I would sell the farm for one good snapper. We actually stopped running Beast for 6 weeks because we didn't have a snapper. I've never seen anything like it. It's surreal.

I remember your writing of that time.  So then I guess Dave Cisar's advice to not proceed without 2 backups for the snapper is completely out of bounds, huh?

And my plan to introduce an unbalanced single wing or beast package to an otherwise under-center balanced-line offense by coaching up a guard to snap is even more beyond the pale?  I thought the idea of having everyone keep their positions on the line would simplify things.


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Bob Goodman
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January 15, 2020 4:46 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge
Posted by: @bob-goodman
Posted by: @32wedge

@bob-goodman

No Bob. I did not say most of that crap you are attributing to me.

I did not say anything just comes naturally. I said it should go much quicker. That's a statement based on common sense not proof based on experience.

"He'll install it unless they are having trouble with wedge to begin with"? No I will install it if I have the players to make it work. IF I DO NOT HAVE A STRONG CENTER PLUS TWO STRONG GUARDS, I DO NOT BOTHER INSTALLING BALANCED FORMATIONS and usually don't flip the line. How much I install is completely based on my personnel. More strong smart linemen equals more installation. More runts/misfits/dumb linemen equals less install.

So wait, you're saying that "if you have the players to make it work", you'll install it even if the players who should be able to make it work are having trouble with it?  Upthread when you qualified it by saying if you have the "talent" you'll install it.  I took "talent" to mean they were making it look easy, that they were "getting it".  Now you're saying that if you have 3 starkers with brains at those positions, you'll spend as long as you need to install wedges at all 3 apexes?

No, Bob.

I am saying if I do not have the 3 strong players, I do not even attempt to install that.

I spend 5 minutes per practice on wedge, tops. Some years, we stay in one unbalanced line formation and wedge at 1 apex the whole season.

I never said anything about having trouble with it.

Got it...I think.  Then it's like everything else we do: Size up the players, try what you think you can do, be prepared to prune the branches that aren't fruiting or don't look like they'd get close to it.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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January 15, 2020 5:29 pm  

@bob-goodman

I'm never one to say something can't be done. I'm saying I would have done any number of very unpleasant things if it meant having a single snapper worth a darn. If you have 3 or more, then why not move it all over the place? In fact, play mind games with the defense by shifting the entire line around the ball. I have it on good authority that I can't wedge with mega splits. I have NEVER believed that and we're finally going to find out.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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