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Bob Goodman
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April 25, 2020 2:50 pm  

In the T formation section here, I've been posting a formation variation and some extra plays I'm proposing to the rest of the coaches on our 12U team for this fall.  But now I'm going into a few that look more like single wing, so I'm posting about them here.  Here's the first.


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32wedge
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April 25, 2020 2:59 pm  

In your drawings, it looks like the man catching the snap is also responsible for handing the ball and making the kick out block.  

 

 


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Bob Goodman
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April 25, 2020 7:57 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge

In your drawings, it looks like the man catching the snap is also responsible for handing the ball and making the kick out block.  

You mean the drawings linked upthread, or the drawings of the wing T plays linked from the T style football area?

If you mean just the plays linked here, the dotted arrow for the snap is going thru the QB's legs and is being caught at "X" by the HB who took a couple steps in motion before running onto the snap there.  The FB starts from close to where the snap will wind up, but by then he's on his banana path to kick out the DE.  Sorry, but without animation I can only show where they start at the snap and where they'll be going.  I figure the snap to have hang time of almost a second, players are moving while the ball is.

Did you think the FB was handing the ball off?  Sorry, but I'm using diagramming conventions that have been in use since 1905 or earlier.  "X" is the spot where someone catches a pass.  "=" or "||" or "\\" crosswise to runners' paths is where a handoff occurs, and there isn't one on this play.

This post was modified 4 months ago by Bob Goodman

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32wedge
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April 25, 2020 8:30 pm  

@bob-goodman

 

So you are planning to snap the ball through the QB’s legs straight at the location the FB is aligned, but the FB is not catching the snap because he has to kick the edge, and the ball is actually intended to go to a back in motion that the QB can’t even see because it’s behind him.

That’s even crazier than the FB handing the ball off and then kicking the DE.

I am glad you are not a coach on my team. I’d have to fire you.

 

This post was modified 4 months ago by 32wedge

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Bob Goodman
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April 25, 2020 10:12 pm  
Posted by: @32wedge

@bob-goodman

 

So you are planning to snap the ball through the QB’s legs straight at the location the FB is aligned, but the FB is not catching the snap because he has to kick the edge, and the ball is actually intended to go to a back in motion that the QB can’t even see because it’s behind him.

That’s even crazier than the FB handing the ball off and then kicking the DE.

I am glad you are not a coach on my team. I’d have to fire you.

You write as if those weren't common single wing practices.  There are many plays where the ball is to be snapped thru the position the FB occupies at the snap to where the TB's going to run onto it.  In mine at least the FB's not directly in the ball's path, he's offset -- but that's irrelevant, since he'll be moving further away.

Why does the QB have to see who's getting the snap on this play?

You'd've flipped to see the college varsity film of "turnstile" QBs who spun away from the snap just as the snapper moved the ball.  And they couldn't start in motion before the snap, because on some plays there was already another back in motion.


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32wedge
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April 26, 2020 8:06 am  

@bob-goodman

The timing of the snap will have to be perfect to hit a back in motion between the QBs legs.  That might not be an issue in your mind, but on grass, with kids, the ball is going to be on the ground most of the time.

 

Why don’t you just snap the ball to the QB and have him turn, give the ball to the TB and boot away, have FB kick and backside guard pull and lead?

 

Why do you want to take something so simple, so sound and proven by decades of execution by youth players and completely screw it up?

 

This post was modified 4 months ago by 32wedge

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Bob Goodman
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April 26, 2020 8:39 am  
Posted by: @32wedge

@bob-goodman

The timing of the snap will have to be perfect to hit a back in motion between the QBs legs.  That might not be an issue in your mind, but on grass, with kids, the ball is going to be on the ground most of the time.

That's what I'd like to find out.  I don't think it's going to be as bad as you think, because otherwise all pitch plays would be contraindicated, let alone the Rocket sweep that this play's a complement to.  Nearly all passes involve someone throwing to a spot where the receiver's going to, and the receiver running onto that spot.  It's just that it's riskier when it's a lateral (such as a snap) because the ball's not dead when it hits the ground as on a forward pass.

Snapping between the QB's legs I don't think will be a problem at all, except if our QB's keeping his feet spread that far apart messes up his footwork on other plays where he has to pull out with the ball quickly.  I mean, there are all sorts of things that could be deal breakers for any or all of the plays I'm suggesting to our team, including offsetting the FB slightly which I'm recommending for all our plays.  But if the QB's foot position isn't one of them, then merely snapping between them shouldn't be a challenge in the slightest, since he'll have moved them hardly at all by the time the ball emerges between them, unlike the "turnstile" tactic I mentioned upthread.  It should make no difference whether the QB is there or not.

The snap should be soft and the HB/TB moving slowly enough (just a couple steps out of his stance) that he's going to see the ball in front of him to meet it.  Less of a challenge than Rocket, where he'll have gotten up some speed before the pitch, and less even than our problems with no-motion pitches to the FB that we had variable success with the last two seasons.  This should be an easier toss and catch than those, because it's the snapper's first movement, unlike the quarterback's, and it's a shorter toss than any of those.

Why don’t you just snap the ball to the QB and have him turn, give the ball to the TB and boot away, have FB kick and backside guard pull and lead?

 Why do you want to take something so simple, so sound and proven by decades of execution by youth players and completely screw it up? 

Because we already have a play such as you describe (except we haven't been having the FB do the kickout block, but the play side G) as part of the 30 (Power) series, pretty standard in wing T.  But if we're going to add Rocket as I suggest, this play will go with it nicely, because it starts with the same motion.  It's to make the defense hesitate when they see the motion start, not to fly immediately outside because the HB could still be going off tackle.  Of course we could still run a FB dive or WB counter against the Rocket action, but I think having the HB meet the snap gives a different problem to the defense.

Plus if the defense isn't respecting the boot or waggle, and are correct in their disrespect if our boot/waggle hasn't been doing well (as it often didn't last season), then adding the QB to the flow of the play gives us more power instead.

On top of that, I'd like to add at least one play snapped to the FB to increase the quick-hitting threat counter to the general flow of this scheme.  As you've noted, the FB too could easily catch this snap and hit to the 6 or 7 hole (wing T numbering).  If you followed my suggestions up to here in the wing T section, you see I'm adding a FB quick hitter, but it's to the 4 hole (or 6 in the 900 formation, mirroring) with no bend-around.  Being able to snap to any of these 3 backs presents an interesting "pace" problem to the defense if we can execute it.


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Bob Goodman
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May 1, 2020 7:56 pm  

Haven't even shown this to our other coaches yet:

 


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Bob Goodman
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May 3, 2020 8:29 am  

Here's the explanation to go with the 131 Direct diagrams.

DumCoach (Clark) has explained how on sweeps, you don't necessarily have to hook an end -- that having him and a blocker in each other's face makes it hard enough to break off to the outside to make a tackle, even if looked at billiard-ball style you're theoretically blocking him into the play.  But I'd like to coach a log block anyway, just for the fun of coaching it.  I did coach one player in it in 2018, and I and the other line coaches coached the technique a bit in 2019.

This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by Bob Goodman

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Bob Goodman
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May 4, 2020 10:33 am  

Here are the counters.

"Joey" in the text refers to our fullback.


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Bob Goodman
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May 4, 2020 1:56 pm  

Here's what I do if I really went nuts with the misdirection:

I'm not even sending this to my team, even though I would like to see us either use our jet series more or just drop it entirely.  If we did use the jet, the motion in front would hide the defense's view of whether the FB was getting the snap.  So here's the QB and the FB each doing a full spin and each faking (or handing) to another back.  The HB couldn't take the snap in such a series, because he's too widely placed, so can't get to the snap without pre-snap motion, and in American rules we get only one man in motion, but at least that man can hide whether the QB or the FB is taking the snap.  So all 4 backs coming out, each potentially with the ball.

And that's even without counting the possibility of a guard or end pulling behind the QB to take a handoff.  And the WB taking a scissors handoff inside.


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