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spidermac
(@spidermac)
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February 15, 2018 8:15 am  

We had some pretty good success throwing the football last season, we actually had more passing yards than rushing yards in a few of the games, which completely stuns me. We were 47 of 90 for 682 yard, 11 TDs, 2 ints and 2 sacks in 7 games with our QB. He missed one game with a stomach bug. His best game was 15 of 19, 209 yards, 3 tds and no picks or sacks. His worst game was game 1, 2 of 9 for 8 yards, 2 picks and 1 sack. By the way, they were 10 last season.

Anywho...we want to be able to stress the defense a bit more with trips sets and empty sets. 90 drop backs and 2 sacks in primarily in 5 man protection, I think we can go empty.

So I am looking at plays that won't change much from a trip set...and I came across Dagger...Y Seam, Z Dig, H Shallow, simple from a 2x2 spread. Still simple from a 3x1, just move H to the right side of the formation, he runs the same type of route towards the sideline.

But here is where I am hesitating...what if I wanted to leave H at home and bring X to the trips side? X would run the shallow to the sideline now, and H would run the hook on the back side...would H split wider (yes, so we don't clutter the middle of the field, we want that Dig Route). How about 3x2? FAR (f on the right). Now F would run the shallow, H would run the back side flat route.

Simple enough for me to remember who is running what, simple for the QB, he knows he has a Seam, a Shallow and a Dig. But am I asking 11 year olds to remember too much? Dagger on the right, you run this, unless we are in Trix, then you run that, or if we are in Far, then you run this...

Should I standardize each play with a single Trip set and Empty Set? i.e., if we are running Dagger we will only run it out of Ace (2x2) Trix/Lazy (3x1 moving the 1 to the opposite side) and Far/Flag (F always on the backside of the play)...

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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February 15, 2018 9:22 am  

The way we would do it is to call the routes by number.

Seam to us is basically a skinny post, so I'd call it an 8
When we used to run a Dig, it was a 5
Shallow cross (I assume) is a 2 for us.

Then, we call a 3 digit number that tells each receiver what to run from left to right:
(I'm sure I'm screwing up your receiver positions, but you get the idea)

                                                                            8
                          T  G  C  G  T  2                      5    Y
                                              H                      Z

So the pattern is "258"

Keep with this regardless of who lines up where. Always left to right.

For us, we tag the target pre-snap because we don't want that decision in our QBs hands.  So if we wanted to hit Y on the seam, it would be "Yak 258".  Our QB last year was a little slow upstairs and would lose track of Y once in awhile. Interestingly, he was probably better overall when he threw to the wrong guy. This says a lot for our receivers who would stay focused even when the ball wasn't supposed to come to them.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 15, 2018 11:46 am  

Empty is a different animal.

The Receivers will rarely if ever forget what they do but the QB can easily lose track.  I have yet to find much info that applies Concepts to Empty so you kinda have to wing it. Its like nobody runs Empty.

A few tips.

Never use motion when in Empty unless that man in motion is just for play action purposes but never runs a route. If you motion into a route it is very likely you will be confusing the QB.

Never use double move routes unless its a quick hitter like a sluggo. You wont be able to protect for more than say 3 seconds so never run a route that requires the QB to release in 3 seconds. The QB mental clock should be One One Thousand Two One Thou... ( releasing ). So time your routes to match that Tempo. Tempo is EVERYTHING and the Receivers MUST give the QB a quick target.

As far as calling plays....lots of systems but the best is always the receivers tree for Empty. This especially because if the QB gets a bit confused he can quickly get his eyes to an area per the called Primary per the tree because the tree has defined monuments attached to simple math. Odd will be outside....Even inside....the bigger the number the deeper the route. This allows the QB to stay confident even after a brain fart.

I have tried a lot of systems and numbers work best. Names do not. A mixture is even more confusing when it comes to the kids. 

Let me know if you need me to go into heavy detail. I would now but I need to know if you are thinking pure super spread or bunched or shifts or will Receivers move around or will X be X and Z Z always in the same spots no matter what....and so on.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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Dusty Ol Fart
(@youth-coach)
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February 15, 2018 12:05 pm  

I've used Route calls in years past.

Fairly simple to do as long as the kids understand the concept.  We used even numbers for Routes into the field and Odd numbers for routes to the sidelines.  I also kept them to a minimum.  Route Calls were ALWAYS left to right with TE Tag.

However, I have found calling "Pass Packages"  or "Bundles" easier to teach to younger kids and they seem to pick that up faster.    I identify the "Hot Receiver" based on what I see from the defense.  Of course you teach the QB too so he can eventually pick up some things on his own to identify the lapses or weak links.  I never trust a Wide Out to tell me anything except why he boogered the route or dropped the ball.  Why?

They're Always Wide Open.    LOL  😀   

Not MPP... ONE TASK!  Teach them!  🙂


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somecoach
(@coach-tony)
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Posts: 112
February 15, 2018 2:43 pm  

We had some pretty good success throwing the football last season, we actually had more passing yards than rushing yards in a few of the games, which completely stuns me. We were 47 of 90 for 682 yard, 11 TDs, 2 ints and 2 sacks in 7 games with our QB. He missed one game with a stomach bug. His best game was 15 of 19, 209 yards, 3 tds and no picks or sacks. His worst game was game 1, 2 of 9 for 8 yards, 2 picks and 1 sack. By the way, they were 10 last season.

Anywho...we want to be able to stress the defense a bit more with trips sets and empty sets. 90 drop backs and 2 sacks in primarily in 5 man protection, I think we can go empty.

So I am looking at plays that won't change much from a trip set...and I came across Dagger...Y Seam, Z Dig, H Shallow, simple from a 2x2 spread. Still simple from a 3x1, just move H to the right side of the formation, he runs the same type of route towards the sideline.

But here is where I am hesitating...what if I wanted to leave H at home and bring X to the trips side? X would run the shallow to the sideline now, and H would run the hook on the back side...would H split wider (yes, so we don't clutter the middle of the field, we want that Dig Route). How about 3x2? FAR (f on the right). Now F would run the shallow, H would run the back side flat route.

Simple enough for me to remember who is running what, simple for the QB, he knows he has a Seam, a Shallow and a Dig. But am I asking 11 year olds to remember too much? Dagger on the right, you run this, unless we are in Trix, then you run that, or if we are in Far, then you run this...

Should I standardize each play with a single Trip set and Empty Set? i.e., if we are running Dagger we will only run it out of Ace (2x2) Trix/Lazy (3x1 moving the 1 to the opposite side) and Far/Flag (F always on the backside of the play)...

There are a couple of ways to do it.
Imo when it comes to concept passing i like to give a kid one route and thats it.
I have done it before where it changes by formation, but personally I like to remove the thinking.

the easiest way to do it is:
X: Shallow
Y: Seam
Z: Dig
H: Post
F: Flat

now no matter what formation, you still get the seam dagger and shallow on the same side.

Make sure the F runs his Flat toward the side the X is lined up so you don't get a flat and a shallow in the same spot

another way to do it:
X: Curl
Y: Seam
Z: Dig
H: Flat
F: Swing

out of 2x2 swing the F to the Y and Z
out of empty align the F to that side
out of trips swing the F towards the trips or keep him in protection

this will ensure you have a flat route under the dagger concept out of every formation, and will give you a built in curl flat concept


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spidermac
(@spidermac)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 2440
February 21, 2018 8:03 am  

Empty is a different animal.

The Receivers will rarely if ever forget what they do but the QB can easily lose track.  I have yet to find much info that applies Concepts to Empty so you kinda have to wing it. Its like nobody runs Empty.

A few tips.

Never use motion when in Empty unless that man in motion is just for play action purposes but never runs a route. If you motion into a route it is very likely you will be confusing the QB.

Never use double move routes unless its a quick hitter like a sluggo. You wont be able to protect for more than say 3 seconds so never run a route that requires the QB to release in 3 seconds. The QB mental clock should be One One Thousand Two One Thou... ( releasing ). So time your routes to match that Tempo. Tempo is EVERYTHING and the Receivers MUST give the QB a quick target.

As far as calling plays....lots of systems but the best is always the receivers tree for Empty. This especially because if the QB gets a bit confused he can quickly get his eyes to an area per the called Primary per the tree because the tree has defined monuments attached to simple math. Odd will be outside....Even inside....the bigger the number the deeper the route. This allows the QB to stay confident even after a brain fart.

I have tried a lot of systems and numbers work best. Names do not. A mixture is even more confusing when it comes to the kids. 

Let me know if you need me to go into heavy detail. I would now but I need to know if you are thinking pure super spread or bunched or shifts or will Receivers move around or will X be X and Z Z always in the same spots no matter what....and so on.

Sorry, work and life interrupted this 🙂

I also spoke with my ACs about this...more on that below...

I personally hate the route tree, I don't know why, its irrational, I know...similar to my fear of bees...

Anywho, we are not going to run out of empty, unless the QB runs with it, so motioning anyone out of empty would work for the first, maybe the second game to confuse the defense, but once it is on film, the coaches will tell there players, "ignore the motion guy, he is just trying to confuse you" 🙂

We are full blown spread the ones on the numbers, the twos on the hashes, we will not be shifting, when we go into trips or empty, they will obviously be closer together, but not interested in bunches, although I may re-think that for a tunnel screen (which I kind of like, I saw Commerce run it with great success against Western Florida in the Natty).

We want the defense wide and spread out, we think we can out athlete the other teams with our 5 eligible receivers, our league rules say every kid must have a starting position for the entire game, so they are going to have some MPP types on defense.

Anywho...back to my thoughts...

Ace Red Slant/Arrow, my players know X: Fade, H: Seam, Y: Arrow, Z: Slant F: Flat. Ace Blue Slant Arrow, same thing on the other side of the field. No route tree. They just know the Routes. Trix Red Slant/Arrow (X is now on the right) would be from Left to Right, H: Fade, X: Seam, Y:Arrow, Z:Slant, F: Flat.

And as I am going through this...I think I have it where they can get it...the receivers just have to know what the routes are for each play from left to right, and know what "position" they are in. Which, I think works well.

As I said, I was talking to my AC's about this, and they think the boys can get it as long as we properly explain the concept (Dagger in this case), We are trying to clear the middle of the field for the Dig route. And learning the routes from left to right (there are only 5) shouldn't be a big deal I don't think 🙂

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 21, 2018 8:21 am  

Sorry, work and life interrupted this 🙂

I also spoke with my ACs about this...more on that below...

I personally hate the route tree, I don't know why, its irrational, I know...similar to my fear of bees...

Anywho, we are not going to run out of empty, unless the QB runs with it, so motioning anyone out of empty would work for the first, maybe the second game to confuse the defense, but once it is on film, the coaches will tell there players, "ignore the motion guy, he is just trying to confuse you" 🙂

We are full blown spread the ones on the numbers, the twos on the hashes, we will not be shifting, when we go into trips or empty, they will obviously be closer together, but not interested in bunches, although I may re-think that for a tunnel screen (which I kind of like, I saw Commerce run it with great success against Western Florida in the Natty).

We want the defense wide and spread out, we think we can out athlete the other teams with our 5 eligible receivers, our league rules say every kid must have a starting position for the entire game, so they are going to have some MPP types on defense.

Anywho...back to my thoughts...

Ace Red Slant/Arrow, my players know X: Fade, H: Seam, Y: Arrow, Z: Slant F: Flat. Ace Blue Slant Arrow, same thing on the other side of the field. No route tree. They just know the Routes. Trix Red Slant/Arrow (X is now on the right) would be from Left to Right, H: Fade, X: Seam, Y:Arrow, Z:Slant, F: Flat.

And as I am going through this...I think I have it where they can get it...the receivers just have to know what the routes are for each play from left to right, and know what "position" they are in. Which, I think works well.

As I said, I was talking to my AC's about this, and they think the boys can get it as long as we properly explain the concept (Dagger in this case), We are trying to clear the middle of the field for the Dig route. And learning the routes from left to right (there are only 5) shouldn't be a big deal I don't think 🙂

I cant think of anyone that wont run from a bee so nothing irrational there.

We both know developing 5 WR's is a chore. So is your thinking for Dagger to place your top receiver in the Dig route position? Go for matchups by moving talent around? This makes sense too me.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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February 21, 2018 9:12 am  

I personally hate the route tree, I don't know why, its irrational, I know...similar to my fear of bees...

Nothing wrong with that. Whatever works. Our guys have been taught several methods to learn the routes. All have about the same success rate as far as retention. Mahonz had this weird "state" thing that was very effective. The kids seemed to know it very well. I was on the defensive side of the ball and saw it/heard it hundreds of times, but couldn't pick up on it.

Anywho, we are not going to run out of empty, unless the QB runs with it,

That's where we were a few years ago. We had a QB run and we had handoff to the motion guy. I stop short of calling it a "sweep", but you get the idea. Last season, we bunched our receivers and the running game exploded out of Empty.  The passing game was still good, but different. Instead of attacking personnel mismatches, we attacked alignments and tendencies . . . in theory. Our OC had (still has) his tendencies and threw whatever tickled him at the time. It worked because we always had 5 guys who could run routes and catch while few teams had 5 guys who could cover them. Anway, I'm just suggesting that you keep the door open for the run game out of empty. Think of it this way. You can either block a stud LB or you can move him 10 yards from the ball.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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spidermac
(@spidermac)
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February 21, 2018 9:16 am  

I cant think of anyone that wont run from a bee so nothing irrational there.

I read this like 6 times thinking...why is he talking about bees...I think I need another cup of coffee 🙂

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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spidermac
(@spidermac)
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February 21, 2018 9:25 am  

Yeah, the whatever works is the deal...like last year, our ball guys had no idea what ISO meant, they new what Red 4 (ISO) on the wrist coach meant though...

We are not going to run with it, because we cannot seem to get the jet sweep mesh right, we didn't run a successful jet sweep all last season, which was frustrating as hell, because the oline could block it, and we have very fast ball guys...I may piddle with that in spring practices and see if we can get it right...

As far as matchups go...I like my ball guys in space against anyone's defenders...so I am more looking for the stress on the defense that empty and trips will cause, the defenders struggling to get aligned to our offense before the ball is snapped. I would happily throw the Dig to any of my ball guys.

None of them suck, they just haven't found what the kid is good at yet.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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February 21, 2018 9:43 am  

Nothing wrong with that. Whatever works. Our guys have been taught several methods to learn the routes. All have about the same success rate as far as retention. Mahonz had this weird "state" thing that was very effective. The kids seemed to know it very well. I was on the defensive side of the ball and saw it/heard it hundreds of times, but couldn't pick up on it.

That's where we were a few years ago. We had a QB run and we had handoff to the motion guy. I stop short of calling it a "sweep", but you get the idea. Last season, we bunched our receivers and the running game exploded out of Empty.  The passing game was still good, but different. Instead of attacking personnel mismatches, we attacked alignments and tendencies . . . in theory. Our OC had (still has) his tendencies and threw whatever tickled him at the time. It worked because we always had 5 guys who could run routes and catch while few teams had 5 guys who could cover them. Anway, I'm just suggesting that you keep the door open for the run game out of empty. Think of it this way. You can either block a stud LB or you can move him 10 yards from the ball.

I had a dream that X was our QB this Spring and I was pissed even though he was throwing TD passes.  😛

The Outlaws never had a QB even with Moll. Odd deal all those years. Frustrating even when we had Trevor.  Nothing like my teams from the past. Your "state" comment brought back those memories where our QB was completing 20 passes in games. My Geography lesson worked with those kids. Didn't really stick with the Outlaws.  Or where we had that one pass play that never failed through many seasons....the TE drag off play action. Outlaws never even scratched that level except maybe their 3rd grade Championship season. My hope....the Outlaws 2.0 get back to that with a kid that can actually play QB.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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gumby_in_co
(@gumby_in_co)
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February 21, 2018 11:26 am  

We are not going to run with it, because we cannot seem to get the jet sweep mesh right,

Oh, believe me, I know. A couple of seasons ago, we REALLY struggled. 2 QBs and 4 different Z backs. Each with different cadence, timing, speed, etc.  When it finally started clicking, it was with the QB who understood the timing, but couldn't hit the water throwing out of a boat. In Spring, he was our only QB and we gave up throwing the ball entirely in 2 games, including the championship. In the Fall, we had 2, but the one who could throw couldn't be trusted with the mesh. So it was a HUGE tell when #10 moved to QB. But I get where you're coming from. Sometimes it's just not worth the time when something just isn't happening.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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gumby_in_co
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February 21, 2018 11:27 am  

My hope....the Outlaws 2.0 get back to that with a kid that can actually play QB.

I'm waiting for that 2nd grader to introduce himself as our new starting QB, then tell us that he's the best decision our organization has ever made. I can dream, can't I?  ;D

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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COCoachKC
(@cocoachkc)
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February 22, 2018 6:25 am  

I'm waiting for that 2nd grader to introduce himself as our new starting QB, then tell us that he's the best decision our organization has ever made. I can dream, can't I?  ;D

Lar,

The best 2nd grader for the job probably doesn't know he is a QB.  Or let me rephrase that.... The father (or in some cases, mom) hasn't gotten into the best candidate's head about being a QB.

Kent


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gumby_in_co
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February 22, 2018 6:30 am  

Lar,

The best 2nd grader for the job probably doesn't know he is a QB.  Or let me rephrase that.... The father (or in some cases, mom) hasn't gotten into the best candidate's head about being a QB.

Kent

You're ruining my dream.  😀

If I had a dollar for every dad of a 2nd grader that told me about how great his kid's arm is . . . I'd have $6.

When in doot . . . glass and oot.


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