Steve

You know I know little about weight training so I usually stay in my lane. However, super setting was what we did at LM, at the new school we have a Strength & conditioning team that comes in 3 days a week. Everything is super setting, everything on whistle. 2 of these guys were S&C guys for D1 schools, and to be honest I can't believe the results they have gotten in  5 weeks. All of our max's have gone up, yet they really don't work a lot of heavy lifts. They focus much more on technique.

Joe

Steve

You know I know little about weight training so I usually stay in my lane. However, super setting was what we did at LM, at the new school we have a Strength & conditioning team that comes in 3 days a week. Everything is super setting, everything on whistle. 2 of these guys were S&C guys for D1 schools, and to be honest I can't believe the results they have gotten in  5 weeks. All of our max's have gone up, yet they really don't work a lot of heavy lifts. They focus much more on technique.

Joe

I train superset style on all of my pushes and pulls and it works great. We aren’t rushing the kids but clearly cutting down on chatting time. Vince is just a bit off on the set count. Usually I’m pushing the kids to get three sets of two or three movements put in a circuit and pushing them to get that done in 15-20 min. They train on Mondays and thurs so there’s plenty of rest. Most of the kids will end up with about 6 sets with decent intensity on pushes, pulls, legs. High school newbies don’t really know how to attack weights.  If we can get 18-20 good sets out of them twice a week, it’s great. The idea is a push a pull and a leg movement...if a kid has to “ go to work “ or “ my ride is here” 30 min into it, at least he’s done whole body work. Great for athletes.

Steve

Gotchya! Well good luck, I'm sure the numbers will improve.

Joe

I train superset style on all of my pushes and pulls and it works great. We aren’t rushing the kids but clearly cutting down on chatting time. Vince is just a bit off on the set count. Usually I’m pushing the kids to get three sets of two or three movements put in a circuit and pushing them to get that done in 15-20 min.

If you have 3 exercises in a circuit and you're doing 3 sets per exercise, that's 9 sets in a circuit. 9 sets per circuit x 5 circuits is 45 sets. What am I missing? But, now I'm confused. Are you saying that the kids are getting through this entire routine in 20 minutes or just 1 circuit in 20 minutes? If it's the former, you're really doing more aerobic training and will not build much strength at all. Additionally, there is the risk of converting the very muscles you want to get strong into type I slow twitch fibers. If you're building strength, there should be at least 3-4 minutes of rest time between the heavier sets. If it's the latter, then your workouts are going over an hour and a half. But, I can live with that.

They train on Mondays and thurs so there’s plenty of rest. Most of the kids will end up with about 6 sets with decent intensity on pushes, pulls, legs. High school newbies don’t really know how to attack weights.  If we can get 18-20 good sets out of them twice a week, it’s great.

This gets into a what I have considered a problem in many HS football strength programs that I have seen. This goes into how much effort a coach is willing to put into properly training his players. To me, it's not acceptable to say that if a kid only gets in a few good sets, that's good enough. We don't allow it on the field, why would we allow it in the weight room? I coached a HS powerlifting team for 3 years. I made them attack weights. I told my kids last night that I would push them beyond what they ever thought possible. I worked with them on squat and bench technique. I coached every rep. I'm not sure how many kids have even ever squatted. I started with the bar and progressed upwards for about 4 sets. Yeah, 1 kid made it to 125x8. It's not about the weight. It's about the mentality.

The idea is a push a pull and a leg movement...if a kid has to “ go to work “ or “ my ride is here” 30 min into it, at least he’s done whole body work. Great for athletes.

This sounds like the "doing something is better than nothing" attitude. I'd rather have them work on one main lift for 5 or 6 good sets than to rush through a circuit where they're not even thinking about good form or technique. For the most part, it takes 2-3 warmup sets before you can even get to the intensity levels that you need to create strength. If I had a kid who can squat 200, I might want him to do 4x5 with 160. But he's still has to do 45x10, 95x5, and 135x3 to get there. That's 7 sets. When I trained my powerlifters, I would get the same thing. They had to leave early for work or whatever. I had them do the just the main lift for the day. You can never go wrong with just squatting, or just benching, or just deadlifting. All the other stuff is just stuff. We focused on one main lift that had the greatest intensity for the day.

If you have 3 exercises in a circuit and you're doing 3 sets per exercise, that's 9 sets in a circuit. 9 sets per circuit x 5 circuits is 45 sets. What am I missing? But, now I'm confused. Are you saying that the kids are getting through this entire routine in 20 minutes or just 1 circuit in 20 minutes? If it's the former, you're really doing more aerobic training and will not build much strength at all. Additionally, there is the risk of converting the very muscles you want to get strong into type I slow twitch fibers. If you're building strength, there should be at least 3-4 minutes of rest time between the heavier sets. If it's the latter, then your workouts are going over an hour and a half. But, I can live with that.This gets into a what I have considered a problem in many HS football strength programs that I have seen. This goes into how much effort a coach is willing to put into properly training his players. To me, it's not acceptable to say that if a kid only gets in a few good sets, that's good enough. We don't allow it on the field, why would we allow it in the weight room? I coached a HS powerlifting team for 3 years. I made them attack weights. I told my kids last night that I would push them beyond what they ever thought possible. I worked with them on squat and bench technique. I coached every rep. I'm not sure how many kids have even ever squatted. I started with the bar and progressed upwards for about 4 sets. Yeah, 1 kid made it to 125x8. It's not about the weight. It's about the mentality. This sounds like the "doing something is better than nothing" attitude. I'd rather have them work on one main lift for 5 or 6 good sets than to rush through a circuit where they're not even thinking about good form or technique. For the most part, it takes 2-3 warmup sets before you can even get to the intensity levels that you need to create strength. If I had a kid who can squat 200, I might want him to do 4x5 with 160. But he's still has to do 45x10, 95x5, and 135x3 to get there. That's 7 sets. When I trained my powerlifters, I would get the same thing. They had to leave early for work or whatever. I had them do the just the main lift for the day. You can never go wrong with just squatting, or just benching, or just deadlifting. All the other stuff is just stuff. We focused on one main lift that had the greatest intensity for the day.

Here’s what you are missing. Full body lifts are better for kids with attendance and consistency issues. These issues are especially present at our school where the commute may be 30-60 min and the kid is dependent on a parent to drive him....that parent may well have a family gym membership....finally, you can’t make lifting mandatory at any point other than inseason. And yes some is better than nothing. A kid doing bench, squat and row and nothing else is better off than the guy who is allergic to weights.

I spent more than a decade offering weights four days a week and maybe 3-5 guys a year would attend 85% of the workouts. Kids play three sports, two sports, get sick, get jobs, go on vacation, have social events, ride issues etc....they aren’t all running around wanting to be the next great football player, powerlifter or bodybuilder....that’s not been my experience. The majority that do show need a lot of supervision, all are newbies....it’s work. A kid might not show again for two or three weeeks,,,,then make three weeks in a row. The guys we have helped to 1000-1200 lb club are major victories against tough odds.

Steve, I understand what you are saying. The school I am at now is in a rural area and is combined of two very small communities that are 10 miles apart. And yes, I know. You can't make off season workouts mandatory. Same here in Michigan. If you feel that squat, bench, and row is what is important, then just do those 3 exercises in a workout and hit each hard for 5-6 sets. You can be done with that workout in 45 minutes, probably less. When I trained the powerlifters, we were done in an hour and that was including the supplemental lifts. I had them do 7-8 sets on the main lift and 3-4 on the supplemental and auxillary exercises. I just don't think that the circuit method is the best way to develop strength.

I’ll add this for Vince ...we are definitely not doing cardio, it’s not a race but the time limits on circuits serve a purpose. That includes allowing for more kids to use the limited equipment, allows for a variety of movements in our training period...as Vince suggests, 45 WORK sets done with max effort would be tough. With newbies, the waste time choosing training weights too light, too heavy, chatting, changing weights, collars on and off...the slow and lazy guys, without a coach all over them, might only get 1-2 quality sets of any movement in a specific circuit...but there are more circuits coming too and often things kids can work more intensely at due to the simplicity of the movement. One coach, maybe two with a number of kids...you can’t see it all...but you try. You rely on your vets and leaders to spot, push, teach, demonstrate etc. so far, I’d say this is so much better than any kind of split training...and even if a kid showed one time a week, he’s going to at least get SOME leg work in vs skipping all scheduled lower body days.

We had guys complete 2-3 sets of five circuits yesterday. Took over an hour but they all played basketball after...the deadlift was paired with db inclines and no other movement as that’s quite taxing. I like it.

Steve, I understand what you are saying. The school I am at now is in a rural area and is combined of two very small communities that are 10 miles apart. And yes, I know. You can't make off season workouts mandatory. Same here in Michigan. If you feel that squat, bench, and row is what is important, then just do those 3 exercises in a workout and hit each hard for 5-6 sets. You can be done with that workout in 45 minutes, probably less. When I trained the powerlifters, we were done in an hour and that was including the supplemental lifts. I had them do 7-8 sets on the main lift and 3-4 on the supplemental and auxillary exercises. I just don't think that the circuit method is the best way to develop strength.

The idea of a leg mvt, a push and a pull through several planes is what we are after for athletes. The nice thing is that I can teach deadlifts to one group while another is busy with leg press. Then we can rotate. Strategy.

The other thing to examine is that after the first two or three circuits the major taxing movements are done. Smaller groups and core are done at the end for those still standing...I’m 53 and can smash out high intensity heavy pushes and pulls at a pace of about 36 sets in 40-45 min. The kids cannot keep up with me but I push.

Steve, I understand what you are saying. The school I am at now is in a rural area and is combined of two very small communities that are 10 miles apart. And yes, I know. You can't make off season workouts mandatory. Same here in Michigan. If you feel that squat, bench, and row is what is important, then just do those 3 exercises in a workout and hit each hard for 5-6 sets. You can be done with that workout in 45 minutes, probably less. When I trained the powerlifters, we were done in an hour and that was including the supplemental lifts. I had them do 7-8 sets on the main lift and 3-4 on the supplemental and auxillary exercises. I just don't think that the circuit method is the best way to develop strength.

Suppose you have two benches and four squat racks, one lat pull, one row, six olympic bars, one leg press....but you have 25 kids in the gym...you need stations, you need to rotate etc. can’t have kids standing around or it turns into grab arse, dancing, wandering off etc. “ you six guys, work these three movements for fifteen min” ...” you six are over here, do this, this and that!” Get a few groups, get a lot of work in, coaches are hustling...kids are busy. The length of time includes teaching...a lot of it.

Steve

You know I know little about weight training so I usually stay in my lane. However, super setting was what we did at LM, at the new school we have a Strength & conditioning team that comes in 3 days a week. Everything is super setting, everything on whistle. 2 of these guys were S&C guys for D1 schools, and to be honest I can't believe the results they have gotten in  5 weeks. All of our max's have gone up, yet they really don't work a lot of heavy lifts. They focus much more on technique.

Joe

I've coached at two places that did everything on a whistle.  I can honestly say that it's the single best thing I've ever seen done in any program I've been a part of coaching.  One was a traditional doormat that went on to have their best seasons in a decade after we started going on a whistle.  The other was a traditional powerhouse in the area despite the raw talent being no different from the surrounding communities--on Friday nights those kids looked more "talented" because they had gotten bigger and stronger, but they once had a dominant defensive unit in our state's highest class with only 3 kids running sub 5.0 on the whole team.  Compared to other programs I worked in that did not use this strategy, the difference was night and day.  I'm a believer in how it holds kids accountable without having to do special "accountability" stuff and keeps things moving efficiently without a waste of time.

I've coached at two places that did everything on a whistle.

I've seen a school that used the whistle.  Most impressive thing I've seen in a weight room.

--Dave

B&T

At our old school we had a S&C coach he was paid a stipend. All super sets all on a whistle plus speed training & conditioning. It was very effective. At the new school our HC handled the weight room during football class, again super sets & on a whistle. He had a very quick pace & we had nice gains. We were worried about our Summer workouts. Along comes these 3 guys, 2 of which were S&C guys at the college level. They are starting a work out place. Less than the cost of a stipend they took on our Summer workouts.

They rearranged our weight room often come in with 5 or 6 guys, never less than 3. Whistles, a larger timer, & many of their own pieces of equipment. Like I have I am not a S&C guy, so I usually don't reply. These guys however, are simply a joy to watch. They have this positive energy yet getting guys to work incredibly hard. Best money we ever spent, I'm sure the price will go up consideribly. We are averaging 75/85 every day.

Joe

Suppose you have two benches and four squat racks, one lat pull, one row, six olympic bars, one leg press....but you have 25 kids in the gym...you need stations, you need to rotate etc. can’t have kids standing around or it turns into grab arse, dancing, wandering off etc. “ you six guys, work these three movements for fifteen min” ...” you six are over here, do this, this and that!” Get a few groups, get a lot of work in, coaches are hustling...kids are busy. The length of time includes teaching...a lot of it.

That was pretty much what I had at the school where I ran the powerlifting team. Where I'm at now, is even smaller, but still 2 benches, a couple of squat racks. I always broke the kids into groups.

Workout A: Squat, close-grip bench, speed pulls, GHRs/abs
Workout B: Bench, tris, lats, db press, curls
Workout C: Deadlift, speed bench, unilateral leg work, GHRs/abs

But, I actually had 5 groups of 4-5 kids. So in a 3 day a week training schedule groups 1 & 2 did A,B,C; Groups 3 & 4 did B,C,A; and group 5 did C,A,B. Not only that, I personally made percentage based programs on spread sheets for each kid. Each kid knew exactly what they were going to do for each set on their main lifts from their warmup weights on through their working sets. There was no guess work.

That was pretty much what I had at the school where I ran the powerlifting team. Where I'm at now, is even smaller, but still 2 benches, a couple of squat racks. I always broke the kids into groups.

Workout A: Squat, close-grip bench, speed pulls, GHRs/abs
Workout B: Bench, tris, lats, db press, curls
Workout C: Deadlift, speed bench, unilateral leg work, GHRs/abs

But, I actually had 5 groups of 4-5 kids. So in a 3 day a week training schedule groups 1 & 2 did A,B,C; Groups 3 & 4 did B,C,A; and group 5 did C,A,B. Not only that, I personally made percentage based programs on spread sheets for each kid. Each kid knew exactly what they were going to do for each set on their main lifts from their warmup weights on through their working sets. There was no guess work.

Powerlifting team ...not the same as a football team where the MAJORITY of kids want nothing to do with weights.
Guys signed up to lift in the powerlifting team I assume.