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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Joined: 10 years ago
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Win a playoff bracket then comeback & talk to us.  You don't believe in playoffs because your incapable of winning one.  You don't want a second crack at a team because you cant out coach them the second time around.

Where I've been coaching since 2010, we play each other twice already; last year we played 3 times.  In 2010, 2011, and 2012 the champs were undefeated, and in 2010 & 2011 that was us, so it's not like we can't beat anyone twice.  The circuit this guy wrote about was similarly small enough for each team to play the other twice, and they had time to do it.  Instead they knocked out the final 3 rounds so that some of those teams didn't get to play each other twice; instead some got knocked out & some played each other a 3rd time.  If you think they should get a 2nd game against each other, that's exactly what I'm advocating: a guaranteed 2nd matchup against each opponent.

Do you not see anything wrong with the possibility of a team's going 3-7 to win their championship?  Look at the other thread (re cheating) about teams sandbagging round robin play with one roster and then altering it for the games that count toward the title, i.e. knockouts.  Would they do that if all games counted the same?  Don't all the players deserve legitimate competition for 1st thru last place?

And I haven't seen anyone argue against my proposal to count only the scoring in the final quarter of games.  You can't, because it's the same as counting wins only in the final quarter or so of the season, which is how it is with unnecessary playoffs.  But you know that would make the games bogus; don't you see that the same bogusness applies to seasons arranged to have teams that already bested other teams in their standings have to play off with other games against them for the final ranking?

And there's nothing especially American about unneeded knockouts.  The same stupidity has swept soccer and other sports all over the world.

In order for there to be NO REASON, it would have to be a foregone conclusion that the #1 seed always wins.  No point in playing a playoff because they never lose.  But the fact that they lose all the freaking time, is obvious proof that there has to be a playoff.

That's what next season is for, usually.  If there's that much time to play games, you could play 2 seasons a year.  I'd have no objection to that.  One round robin for season 1, followed immediately by another for season 2.  2 round robin tournaments, 2 champions (except in many cases they'd be the same).  In this case, that'd be two 5 game seasons.  That way every team gets a fresh slate and another chance against every opponent, not just the one they happen to meet in a playoff.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Besides it's usually the 2 or 3 seeds that get the upset.  All of the bottom seed in our conference have been knocked out.  Every one.

Then what was the point of playing those games?  Why deliberately schedule mismatches, when those teams could instead be playing games that'd be closer matchups?  Why cut round robin play short and instead intentionally pick out teams that are doing the worst to play against teams that are doing the best?


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
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Do i see anything wrong w/ a 3-7 team winning the championship?  YES I DO!  Whats wrong w/ it is the top seed getting out coached!

In this case it would've been the 3 top seeds, not just 1.

You feel sorry for a team that goes through u defeated then loses to the bottom seed?  Thats just a victim mentality.

I feel sorry for kids playing 7 exhibition games, then a 3 round knockout.  Oh, hey, kids, you know all that football you've been playing the previous 2 months?  We weren't keeping score.  Oh, but if you got a suspension or an injury, that counted, sorry.


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angalton
(@angalton)
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Joined: 9 years ago
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Play off atmosphere. Knowing this is it. Regardless of record, you got one chance to show your the best. The money it brings in for organizations hosting play offs and championship games is absolutely a must. Our top four teams in each division play in a play off bracket. No undefeated teams have won championship at our age level. Games are close a lot in overtime. So yes it is two seasons, 1 to see who goes to the second season and 2 who can come out on top. We have 9 teams in each division, you can't play everyone twice. Try it you will like it.

The greatest accomplishment is not in never failing, but in rising again after you fail.


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MHcoach
(@mhcoach)
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Jake

You have to understand Bob's experience comes from the waste land of youth football known as NYC football. He coaches in a house league they see the same teams week in & week out. You however; coach where it's very different. First the level of competition is way better, second the level of coaching is better.

In Bob's case what he says makes sense, only it doesn't for the rest of us. Very different football landscapes.

Joe

"Champions behave like champions before they're champions: they have a winning standard of performance before they are winners"Bill Walsh


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COACH JC
(@winged)
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In this case it would've been the 3 top seeds, not just 1.I feel sorry for kids playing 7 exhibition games, then a 3 round knockout.  Oh, hey, kids, you know all that football you've been playing the previous 2 months?  We weren't keeping score.  Oh, but if you got a suspension or an injury, that counted, sorry.

You really don't understand how it all works.  Exhibition games?  No, you played for the league title (the regular season title).  Amd you played to get the top seed in the conference title playoffs.  And you play those to advance to the regional title bracket. And you play those to advance to the national title bracket.

Why is that so hard to understand?  You need to win multiple championships along the way.  Each being more important the further you advance. 

I feel sorry for players that have never had a chance to compete for a real championship.  Where at the minimum you have to make it through a regular season and a post season.

It's all about having fun.  But losing aint fun!


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Joined: 11 years ago
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In Bob's case what he says makes sense, only it doesn't for the rest of us.

That says it all about Bob.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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angalton
(@angalton)
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Playing in a regional and national level would be AWESOME. We just play within our league. Unlimited with striped rule.

The greatest accomplishment is not in never failing, but in rising again after you fail.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
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Posts: 23090
 

Then what was the point of playing those games?  Why deliberately schedule mismatches, when those teams could instead be playing games that'd be closer matchups?  Why cut round robin play short and instead intentionally pick out teams that are doing the worst to play against teams that are doing the best?

Bob

We won the Championship last season as the 5th seed....knocking two undefeated teams out along the way and beating another that beat us in the regular season.  Playoffs can provide some nice revenge as well.

Mismatches are not deliberately set. It is what it is per the Regular Season. To reshuffle brackets so to speak...takes away from the teams that worked hard and got er done in the Regular Season.

You should contact some of the other house leagues around your area and create a bigger League. You'd be amazed at the end result...for everyone. Its fun....nothing more.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
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Posts: 17721
 

Playing in a regional and national level would be AWESOME. We just play within our league. Unlimited with striped rule.

Perhaps.  But the amount of paper work, financial co$t, hotels and transportation for 30 players, logistical issues (attending an out of town regional meeting for book check on Thanksgiving), players arrival on Friday, absentee forms, birth certificates from Kalamazoo, etc. make it one of the biggest PITA undertakings I had to deal with.  I liked coaching the game, but the travel logistics were nightmarish.  Don't miss that at all.  If I went back to coaching youth ball, I'd want to go D3 just so I didn't have to concern myself with that aspect of PW.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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RoyalFlush18
(@royalflush18)
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Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 192
 

Perhaps.  But the amount of paper work, financial co$t, hotels and transportation for 30 players, logistical issues (attending an out of town regional meeting for book check on Thanksgiving), players arrival on Friday, absentee forms, birth certificates from Kalamazoo, etc. make it one of the biggest PITA undertakings I had to deal with.  I liked coaching the game, but the travel logistics were nightmarish.  Don't miss that at all.  If I went back to coaching youth ball, I'd want to go D3 just so I didn't have to concern myself with that aspect of PW.

--Dave

Our Org President has said "Once was enough for him" due to all the things listed above.  Enjoyed the experience but it was a nightmare....the $$$s is difficult to justify.


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mahonz
(@mahonz)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 23090
 

Perhaps.  But the amount of paper work, financial co$t, hotels and transportation for 30 players, logistical issues (attending an out of town regional meeting for book check on Thanksgiving), players arrival on Friday, absentee forms, birth certificates from Kalamazoo, etc. make it one of the biggest PITA undertakings I had to deal with.  I liked coaching the game, but the travel logistics were nightmarish.  Don't miss that at all.  If I went back to coaching youth ball, I'd want to go D3 just so I didn't have to concern myself with that aspect of PW.

--Dave

Dave

Interesting.

I have never been a part of PW or AYF but have taken some teams to an annual mega post season tourney in Las Vegas that is designed for the Independents. I agree it is a nightmare to administer but what the kids really got out of it was the fact that the World is a big place and they are one tiny grain of sand. They all grew up a little on these trips.

I hope all of my Grandsons get to experience this just once. That experience truly motivated my own son right before he started playing HS ball and why I committed to take a team here and there over the next 10 years or so.

I wouldn't do this for the younger age kids. It has to be a rather serious commitment.

What is beautiful, lives forever.


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CoachDP
(@coachdp)
Kryptonite
Joined: 11 years ago
Posts: 17721
 

We've taken two teams to Disney and that doesn't even address the states we had to go to before getting there.  One year we did a 13-hour bus trip to Columbia, Tennessee.  Sometimes, it not even the distance, but the experience of the trip itself.  As I said in another thread, I'm heading to Hampton, Va this Saturday.  If I were the header, I'd have to go through all the meetings and junk on Friday night.  We'd be required to stay at "Hotel A" but the meeting is at "Hotel B."  "Hotel B" is nowhere close to "Hotel A" even though there's a hotel right next to "Hotel B" but we're not allowed to book rooms there.  Or PW mandates that we stay in a hotel right next to a "Gentleman's Club."  Then I have parents complaining about that.  We also have to make sure that everyone's fed and that there's a restaurant close by that can handle 30 players, 30 parents and 10 admins.  It just goes on and on...

What I want is an 8-10 game schedule, season over by the end of October and no travel outside of 60 minutes.

--Dave

"The Greater the Teacher, the More Powerful the Player."

The Mission Statement: "I want to show any young man that he is far tougher than he thinks, that he can accomplish more than what he dreamed and that his work ethic will take him wherever he wants to go."

#BattleReady newhope


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9578
 

If you cant make it through the playoff bracket, you don't deserve to be champion.

If you have a losing record, you don't deserve to be champion.  Is that hard to fathom?

The champion is whoever wins most consistently.  If you have 6 teams, the best way to determine that is for everybody to play everybody else twice.  You get a more clear & consistent picture that way than any other.  Knockouts you could do 5 times and get different results; in round robin the cream rises to the top pretty reliably.

Why do you think having a chance to knock somebody out in 1 game gives you a better idea of who deserves to be champion?  Since ther results are so irreproducible, I guess you must conclude that most of the time, nobody deserves to be champion, because unless there was just one dominant team, it would be different teams getting knocked out every time you repeated the tournament.

How would you tell if a die was fair or loaded?  You'd roll it a lot of times and see how often the faces came up.  You wouldn't play it off against other dice.


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Bob Goodman
(@bob-goodman)
Diamond
Joined: 10 years ago
Posts: 9578
 

Play off atmosphere. Knowing this is it. Regardless of record, you got one chance to show your the best.

You could achieve that a lot better by playing for stakes, preferably every game.


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